new patch ench charm

[Malrubius]

I hear ya, and to make it clear, I wasn't complaining at all. I have no idea if charm is currently overpowered or underpowered (or neither) vs. classic.

It was just a general question about whether or not the design (of stuff) is sometimes intentionally changed to compensate for the fact that we are (mostly) intimately familiar with the game.


I also wanted to make it clear that CHA was far from "vital" in classic. It was helpful, but that's about it. A very likely-sounding formula is even in those classic era posts!

Anyway, based on your results gp, it sounds like it might be about right. I'm looking forward to spinning up an Enchanter again.

[xxzertox]

Thank you very much.

[Splorf22]

On the one hand, I've long considered enchanters a bit OP. I was able to solo the King room in Guk at 52 even without whirl, whereas a 6 man group of 50s without an enchanter could easily wipe there. And I can't really consider it to be some amazing talent on my part, just pacify / paralyzing earth / charm.

On the other hand, if I didn't have the portal in the back it would unquestionably have been an XP loss. If there are enchanters charm soloing at 50+ for xp without a) being at a zone line or b) being outdoors with SoW they are a hell of a lot more skilled than I am. Charm break on a 45+ pet is *ugly* - you'll take 200-300 damage in the best case, and 1000-1500 if you get a resist on color flux or you get bashed. And if you look at the log, you will notice that the enchanter that posted is in fact duoing with a cleric. Charm breaks in groups are even worse because the mob you are fighting isn't rooted, so usually it will come after you as well (or summon you). In fact I would say with the changes to taunt charming in a full group was dead anyway.

It's been 10 years, but I don't remember enchanters permacharming pets in groups, so the changes may be somewhat classic, although Haynar told me that the charm code here was completely rewritten from eqemulator. Ultimately I think that if your goal is to have a hard game where the mobs are a lot stronger than the players, you just can't have a cool class like an enchanter with abilities like calm and charm.

[Ropethunder]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I was able to solo the King room in Guk at 52 even without whirl.

You can't compare a camp with ubiquitous number of spawns to charm kill one PH with a zone line at your back to the much more dangerous dungeon crawling variety.

Honestly, charming stuff was dangerous for soloing but it wasn't overpowered. It was perfect with plenty of unexpected charm breaks. Sure, you could get a pretty solid charm if you use it on something 10-15 levels below you. But that wouldn't be considered "cruise control to xp" as some have said it is.

Charming takes a lot of mana and is not as amazing solo exp as people think it is when you factor in charm breaks, med breaks, regen breaks when you take hp damage, and the plat sink for runes.

Higher level charms was perfect before this patch. And in Kunark mobs hit so hard that I would already only ever charm while in a group. A charm break means you get nailed even with Rune V up.

What was the reason for this change? Why was it considered overpowered?

[ziahh]

Originally Posted by Ropethunder [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can't compare a camp with ubiquitous number of spawns to charm kill one PH with a zone line at your back to the much more dangerous dungeon crawling variety.

Honestly, charming stuff was dangerous for soloing but it wasn't overpowered. It was perfect with plenty of unexpected charm breaks. Sure, you could get a pretty solid charm if you use it on something 10-15 levels below you. But that wouldn't be considered "cruise control to xp" as some have said it is.

Charming takes a lot of mana and is not as amazing solo exp as people think it is when you factor in charm breaks, med breaks, regen breaks when you take hp damage, and the plat sink for runes.

Higher level charms was perfect before this patch. And in Kunark mobs hit so hard that I would already only ever charm while in a group. A charm break means you get nailed even with Rune V up.

What was the reason for this change? Why was it considered overpowered?

thx you , you reflected my thoughts on this one. since iam french canadien i cant really make solid post and arguing the point. all enchanter i spoke to agreed that the new charm data is really fucekd up and have negate any ability to solo what so ever. we really need a roll back on that 1 ><

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by Ropethunder [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can't compare a camp with ubiquitous number of spawns to charm kill one PH with a zone line at your back to the much more dangerous dungeon crawling variety.

Honestly, charming stuff was dangerous for soloing but it wasn't overpowered. It was perfect with plenty of unexpected charm breaks. Sure, you could get a pretty solid charm if you use it on something 10-15 levels below you. But that wouldn't be considered "cruise control to xp" as some have said it is.

Charming takes a lot of mana and is not as amazing solo exp as people think it is when you factor in charm breaks, med breaks, regen breaks when you take hp damage, and the plat sink for runes.

Higher level charms was perfect before this patch. And in Kunark mobs hit so hard that I would already only ever charm while in a group. A charm break means you get nailed even with Rune V up.

What was the reason for this change? Why was it considered overpowered?

I think if you had read more than 10 words of my post you would realize that we agree on just about everything, except perhaps the basic design philosophy of everquest.

[Fazlazen]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's been 10 years, but I don't remember enchanters permacharming pets in groups, so the changes may be somewhat classic, although Haynar told me that the charm code here was completely rewritten from eqemulator. Ultimately I think that if your goal is to have a hard game where the mobs are a lot stronger than the players, you just can't have a cool class like an enchanter with abilities like calm and charm.

I think your memory is off on this point. I clearly remember enchanters keeping a charmed frog for hours in sebilis on live.

The nerf to calm/paci/lull was right and it was in fact OP. This is what allowed us enchanters to break in camps and it made many encounters trivial. Whirl, I was actually happy when whirl till you hurl was nerfed, because it wasnt right.


However, charming, from the testing I've been doing last night, seems way off. I dont think a single one of my charms lasted for more than 5mins, breaking often under less than 30seconds, and these charms were done on tashanian'd 10 lvls undercons in Charasis, with 255 charisma at lvl 57. I was in North wing with a necro at that time, keeping both our pets tashed, and he could not believe how much longer his charms were lasting compared to mine. (<Vesica Dei> dont remember his name, lvl 57 necro.)

Let's not forget charming is one of the main ability of the enchanter class.

Maybe it makes us OP, then so be it, thats the way the game was designed.

Just wait until we start raiding velious and all that is asked of us is to clarity and to click our epic, you'll get your last laugh.

faz

[ziahh]

Originally Posted by Fazlazen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Let's not forget charming is one of the main ability of the enchanter class.

Maybe it makes us OP, then so be it, thats the way the game was designed.

Just wait until we start raiding velious and all that is asked of us is to clarity and to click our epic, you'll get the last laugh.

faz

AMEN

[Caravelle1]

As a chanter who use charm from level 30 until level 56 let me share some stats on charm before and after patch.

Level 30-40 with around 215 CHA charms held rediculously well, I remember charming a yellow con minotaur in guk, and it held nearly the full duration. I could charm even/yellow pets no problem.

level 40-45 things started to even out, I would say even con and 2 levels below me were very diffucult to charm, lasted on average 2-3 minutes with malo. At 45 I would try and charm Zol knights because they were level 40 and would hold better than dar.

level 45-50 even con mobs became harder to charm. I had 255 CHA at this point. the only exception to holding lvl 47-50 mobs at level 50 was with malo.

at 50 holding a level 43 or below mob I would have considered safe and lasted full duration 80%. level 44-47 was risky, they would hold full duration about 50%. level 47-50 was probably 0-10% full duration. WITH malo, however, it raised the hold to 80% or so I would guess.


50+ charming actually seems to get easier at this point, I can understand the frustration of people. at level 55 I was able to, without malo hold a level 50 mob charmed for full duration probably 50% of the time. As an enchanter who used charm whenever possible I can admit that it was overpowered at the 50+ level.

After the patch, I can hold light blue mobs on average 0% full duration, at level 56, level 39 mobs are lasting an average of 2 minutes.

I think that a chanter nerf was needed, however, charm as a utility tool has been not nerfed, but effectively removed from the game. It seems like there is a lot of chanter hate because we had it so easy, and that warrants a complete obliteration of our most powerful ability. Charm was not as good on live during this era than it was on P99,
however,
it was NOT this bad. at level 56 I should be able to hold a mob that is 15 levels below me for more than one minute IMO, and THAT is me talking from a classic standpoint.

[Coril]

I tried charming 5 times last night with a Cha of 230 ish. 55 enchanter.

4/5 of the charms on sub 50 mobs broke under 30 seconds. This is not classic; it is pointless.