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Old 02-07-2022, 07:45 PM
hotkarlmarxbros hotkarlmarxbros is offline
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Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I think Arcler was the first proven cheat, no? For his AFK trakanon batphones using pixel detection, right? I assume that's why Riot is so good at figuring out that everybody else is cheating and knowing exactly how they do it.

Well, first behind catherine, anyway. Autofire away!

I wonder what Arcler and catherine have in common, hmm... It's definitely not that their both in Vanquish together, is it?

Who's the real fucking cheaters here.
I don't care about arcler, I don't care about stunningly, I don't really care about anybody who is cheating. The problem isn't the cheaters, it is the fact that the engages are exploitable. You ban a cheater here and there and another will just pop up to replace them so long as the engages stay the same. The box owners want to have a competitive server but refuse to provide any oversight or competitive implementations. Every guild who has "dominated" the server in the time since I've played here has done so on the coattails of cheaters, riding their momentum as far as it will take them. Aftermath, Riot, Vanquish. I'm sure the guilds that were around prior to me playing here rose through the ranks similarly. The majority of raiders here have never even raided competitively and barely understand the engages, only showed up to one side's zergfest or the other hitting their autoattack button or ch macro.
  #2  
Old 02-07-2022, 07:47 PM
DeathsSilkyMist DeathsSilkyMist is offline
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Originally Posted by hotkarlmarxbros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I don't care about arcler, I don't care about stunningly, I don't really care about anybody who is cheating. The problem isn't the cheaters, it is the fact that the engages are exploitable. You ban a cheater here and there and another will just pop up to replace them so long as the engages stay the same. The box owners want to have a competitive server but refuse to provide any oversight or competitive implementations. Every guild who has "dominated" the server in the time since I've played here has done so on the coattails of cheaters, riding their momentum as far as it will take them. Aftermath, Riot, Vanquish. I'm sure the guilds that were around prior to me playing here rose through the ranks similarly. The majority of raiders here have never even raided competitively and barely understand the engages, only showed up to one side's zergfest or the other hitting their autoattack button or ch macro.
To even hope to begin to provide evidence of cheating, please explain how OP can come to any conclusions without the ping of the players involved. I will re-post my example until someone can counter it. If they cannot, OP just wasted 2 months by not understanding the basics of computer science unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I said "Happen to receive", because it is an example[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] I wanted to keep the example as simple as possible. But sure, let us add that variable in if you want. It doesn't help your case or OP's. Your logic is incorrect here.

================================================== =======================================

I will try to make a very simple math example to show why online games are not a great way to judge reaction times.

In case you don't know, ping measures the round trip time it takes for a player to send data to the server, and receive it back. So if a player has a ping of 20ms, that means it took something like 10ms to send the data out, and 10ms to get the data back. It doesn't have to be a 50/50 split like that, but I will use it for simplicity.

Here are the conditions for the hypothetical example:

1. Racing Player A has 20ms ping.

2. Racing Player B has 200ms ping.

3. Observing Player has 30ms ping.

4. Rolling Player has 40ms ping.

5. The Server is the P99 server.

6. Lets assume OP is correct, and normal humans have a 250ms reaction time.




Rolling Player would send the "REQUEST RANDOM" command to the server at the 0ms mark.

The Server would receive the "REQUEST RANDOM" command from the Rolling Player at the 20ms mark (+20ms to receive the message from the Rolling Player)

Racing Player A would receive the "RANDOM NUMBER 900" message at the 30ms mark (+10ms to receive the message from The Server)

Racing Player A would send the "STARTED MOVING" command to the server at the 280ms mark (+250ms reaction time).

The Server would receive the "STARTED MOVING" command from the Racing Player A at the 290ms mark (+10ms to receive the message from the Racing Player A).

Observing Player would receive the "STARTED MOVING" command from the Racing Player A at the 305ms mark (+15ms to receive the message from The Server).




Rolling Player would send the "REQUEST RANDOM" command to the server at the 0ms mark.

The Server would receive the "REQUEST RANDOM" command from the Rolling Player at the 20ms mark (+20ms to receive the message from the Rolling Player)

Racing Player B would receive the "RANDOM NUMBER 900" message at the 120ms mark (+100ms to receive the message from The Server)

Racing Player B would send the "STARTED MOVING" command to the server at the 370ms mark (+250ms reaction time).

The Server would receive the "STARTED MOVING" command from the Racing Player B at the 470ms mark (+100ms to receive the message from the Racing Player B).

Observing Player would receive the "STARTED MOVING" command from the Racing Player B at the 495ms mark (+15ms to receive the message from The Server).




So in this example, you would have a difference of 190ms just from ping.
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  #3  
Old 02-07-2022, 07:52 PM
PlsNoBan PlsNoBan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
To even hope to begin to provide evidence of cheating, please explain how OP can come to any conclusions without the ping of the players involved. I will re-post my example until someone can counter it. If they cannot, OP just wasted 2 months by not understanding the basics of computer science unfortunately.
Surely someone with your proficiency in computer science would understand how simple it is to exploit this system via extremely simple scripts and how unlikely it would be to ever be detected doing so "beyond a reasonable doubt" right?

Just so we're on the same page
  #4  
Old 02-07-2022, 07:56 PM
DeathsSilkyMist DeathsSilkyMist is offline
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Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Surely someone with your proficiency in computer science would understand how simple it is to exploit this system via extremely simple scripts and how unlikely it would be to ever be detected doing so "beyond a reasonable doubt" right?

Just so we're on the same page
Yes, you could cheat in a manner that goes undetected. But if it is undetected, how can we punish someone for it?[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You could increase your start time by lets say 40ms with a script. But in my example, there is already a 190ms difference if the two people have equal reaction times. So instead of a difference of 190ms, you would see a difference of 230ms. Sadly that is within the margins of ping. That is why you can't even begin to check if cheating occurred unless you had proper logs of everybody's ping, and the time it took to send and receive the data.
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  #5  
Old 02-07-2022, 08:23 PM
karadin karadin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Surely someone with your proficiency in computer science would understand how simple it is to exploit this system via extremely simple scripts and how unlikely it would be to ever be detected doing so "beyond a reasonable doubt" right?

Just so we're on the same page
What sort of competitive changes would you like to see that would eliminate any chance at cheating?
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  #6  
Old 02-07-2022, 08:28 PM
PlsNoBan PlsNoBan is offline
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Originally Posted by karadin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
What sort of competitive changes would you like to see that would eliminate any chance at cheating?
Why does it have to be competitive? Classic EQ wasn't designed to be an e-sport my guy. It CERTAINLY wasn't designed for multiple large raid guilds to be competing for the same handful of targets for years on end. Despite the fantasies of some deranged elves around here none of this shit is classic.
  #7  
Old 02-07-2022, 08:45 PM
karadin karadin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Why does it have to be competitive? Classic EQ wasn't designed to be an e-sport my guy. It CERTAINLY wasn't designed for multiple large raid guilds to be competing for the same handful of targets for years on end. Despite the fantasies of some deranged elves around here none of this shit is classic.
Ignoring the fact that you’re not qualified to say what the game was designed to be, it has to be competitive because that is what the creators of p99 have said it must be. They have made it very clear that they are completely against rotations and there are leaked discord logs of them lambasting their GMs for implementing them in the past. I would be happy to link those for you.
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  #8  
Old 02-07-2022, 10:28 PM
PlsNoBan PlsNoBan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karadin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Ignoring the fact that you’re not qualified to say what the game was designed to be, it has to be competitive because that is what the creators of p99 have said it must be. They have made it very clear that they are completely against rotations and there are leaked discord logs of them lambasting their GMs for implementing them in the past. I would be happy to link those for you.
Don't need to be a rocket scientist to realize this was never the intention for the game. The creators of P99 are on record (ad nauseam) as saying their intention is to recreate EQ as it was in 1999 as closely as possible. P99 is NOTHING like 1999 Everquest in a wide variety of ways.


P.S. There are options besides FTE and Rotation. Being against rotation =/= it must be competitive.

P.S.S. It's extremely easy to cheat in the way OP is describing. Whether or not you can prove Stunningly (or anyone else) did it or not doesn't matter. The fact that it can be done easily without being detected should be enough to conclude that a different system should be used.
  #9  
Old 02-07-2022, 08:01 PM
hotkarlmarxbros hotkarlmarxbros is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
To even hope to begin to provide evidence of cheating, please explain how OP can come to any conclusions without the ping of the players involved. I will re-post my example until someone can counter it. If they cannot, OP just wasted 2 months by not understanding the basics of computer science unfortunately.
I already engaged your example. It is becoming increasingly less relevant the more you type. Any observer sees 'race start' and 'run start' from the players strictly as a function of these other players ping + reaction time. You are not a clever snowflake hacker mastermind talking to unwashed masses. I majored in computer science, I've built TCP functionality into data sent over more primitive protocols for projects in network programming classes. I work as a programmer (albeit on mundane CRUD applications). I would also venture a guess that my corpus of knowledge is dwarfed by more than a dozen people who sit around and play this game and/or peruse this forum, but you would not be one of them.

The biggest disconnect from reality in your posts is your unwillingness to engage stunningly's actual ping that has been shown. Actual footage from him logged into the game, hilariously having so many other things obscured because he's shady as fuck, but forgetting to hide that one detail. It is time to take a breath and either face some facts or realize that all your posting is just spinning your wheels while convincing exactly nobody.
  #10  
Old 02-07-2022, 08:08 PM
DeathsSilkyMist DeathsSilkyMist is offline
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Originally Posted by titanshub [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
The distribution is from humanreaction.com and their database of 81million tests. Looks pretty valid to me.
It is irrelevant because that test is not done in the same way a video game is done. That website almost certainly does the reaction time on the client side exclusively, and then sends the results up to their database afterwards. It has nothing to do with a video game, where every player is receiving the same data at different periods in time. Unless you can figure out what the difference was for everybody, you can't use a single observer to determine if cheating occurred.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotkarlmarxbros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I already engaged your example. It is becoming increasingly less relevant the more you type. Any observer sees 'race start' and 'run start' from the players strictly as a function of these other players ping + reaction time. You are not a clever snowflake hacker mastermind talking to unwashed masses. I majored in computer science, I've built TCP functionality into data sent over more primitive protocols for projects in network programming classes. I work as a programmer (albeit on mundane CRUD applications). I would also venture a guess that my corpus of knowledge is dwarfed by more than a dozen people who sit around and play this game and/or peruse this forum, but you would not be one of them.

The biggest disconnect from reality in your posts is your unwillingness to engage stunningly's actual ping that has been shown. Actual footage from him logged into the game, hilariously having so many other things obscured because he's shady as fuck, but forgetting to hide that one detail. It is time to take a breath and either face some facts or realize that all your posting is just spinning your wheels while convincing exactly nobody.
Honestly I don't care about your credentials. You would understand what I am talking about if you are telling the truth. The first problem is you assume the ping meter at the top is even correct. I have no idea if that thing is accurate[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Just because it is displayed on the screen, it doesn't mean a damn thing.

But let's assume his ping was correct for arguments sake. You still don't have the ping of the other observers, so you again don't know the order in which the data was sent and received, so you cannot possibly account for it.
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