Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[Troxx]

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[Troxx]

Please forgive any minor grammar or spelling/wordswap issues. I’m on my iPhone (fucking autocorrect) and this will be long. I don’t feel like proof reading.

Attempt at honest discussion incomming …

I do find it funny that DSM places such a high value on redundant heals/utility for the sake of safety. Bear with me but let’s play along a shall we?

-Imagine you have a static camp of 27 mobs each with 8000hp.
-Mob respawn time is 27minutes
-camp isn’t hard. Mobs are loosely arranged. Some are single pulls/engages. Some come in 2s. Rare spot there are 3-4 you might have to deal with (cc/lull/FD split)

Without counting the actual mobs down there this is more or less crypt/emp. Unfortunately this caster group by definition cannot have a rog so once you’re down there you can’t do emp but can face pull some stuff through the emp door.

But for the sake of argument. There are 27 mobs.

100dps = 80 second kill time
200dps = 40 second kill time
300dps = 26 second kill time
400dps = 20 second kill time

Hang with me here. We are about to ruminate our head-walnuts and approach this not as concrete thinkers. We are going to engage in that thing DSM is incapable of abstract thought.

Concrete absolutes:

@100 dps (80 second kills): with zero down time to move or pull this group will kill at most 20 mobs per repop cycle. Factoring that you WILL have to move, pull, or whatever else you’re looking at realistically 17-18 kills due to time lost.

@200 dps (40 second kills): with zero down time you can kill all in 18 minutes! Knowing there will be down time and mobility moving around etc you’re probably looking more at all kills in 22ish minutes. This leaves you 5 mins of time between cycles/repops. If there is a named who is more resistant or has more hps or dps time was lost doing CC maybe add a minute or 2-3. Still even then you are done but now have 2-3 minutes of down time for repops.

@300 dps (26 second kills): with zero downtime you can kill it all in 11.7 minute. This leaves 15.3 minutes of down time. Knowing that you have to move around … let’s drop that to 11.3 minutes of down time. With naked or unexpected stuff? Take a way a few more minutes and let’s just say a solid 8-9 mins down time.

@400 dps (20 second kills): with zero down time all dead in 9. 18 minutes down time … wait no make that 14 for movement or maybe 12 for other stuff mentioned above.

OK GUYS CONCRETE BS IS DONE — let’s think abstractly.

Down time: it is good for the heart, soul, allows you to take a piss or look at some tantalizing pictures on the intrawebs of that’s what your heart desires. It gives you a moment to breathe, med up, refresh buffs. It allows you to make a sammich or grab another beer. It allows classes like mages to be freshly full mana with each cycle so they don’t have to get stingy on the nukes.

“Safety”: the shorter a fight, the less time for the fight to go wrong. If you drop your kill time from 80 sec to 40 sec to 26 sec to 20 sec … that’s a whole hell of a lot less time for the emergency situation to actually develop. If it does develop you exponentially reduce chance of catastrophe as the encounter is over so much faster. By killing faster; far less reason to even need that slow, extra root or heal. If mobs die faster less cleric mana use per mob - mana saved.

DPS doesn’t have a break point. Anyone capable of abstract thought can understand this. Even in a situation where you are limited by mobs (no more to pull) there is significant benefit in just getting things dead faster. More time to take care of basic bodily functions or just rest the eyes. It also markedly reduces risk because thing die so much faster … it’s why you never needed the extra heals, cc, or “utility” of the shaman.

What if the group is crawling around though? A place like seb is a veritable all you can eat buffet. If you want to move around the 400dps group will be getting literally twice as much xp loot compared to 200. 300 getting 50% more.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Please forgive any minor grammar or spelling/wordswap issues. I’m on my iPhone (fucking autocorrect) and this will be long. I don’t feel like proof reading.

Attempt at honest discussion incomming …

I do find it funny that DSM places such a high value on redundant heals/utility for the sake of safety. Bear with me but let’s play along a shall we?

-Imagine you have a static camp of 27 mobs each with 8000hp.
-Mob respawn time is 27minutes
-camp isn’t hard. Mobs are loosely arranged. Some are single pulls/engages. Some come in 2s. Rare spot there are 3-4 you might have to deal with (cc/lull/FD split)

Without counting the actual mobs down there this is more or less crypt/emp. Unfortunately this caster group by definition cannot have a rog so once you’re down there you can’t do emp but can face pull some stuff through the emp door.

But for the sake of argument. There are 27 mobs.

100dps = 80 second kill time
200dps = 40 second kill time
300dps = 26 second kill time
400dps = 20 second kill time

Hang with me here. We are about to ruminate our head-walnuts and approach this not as concrete thinkers. We are going to engage in that thing DSM is incapable of abstract thought.

Concrete absolutes:

@100 dps (80 second kills): with zero down time to move or pull this group will kill at most 20 mobs per repop cycle. Factoring that you WILL have to move, pull, or whatever else you’re looking at realistically 17-18 kills due to time lost.

@200 dps (40 second kills): with zero down time you can kill all in 18 minutes! Knowing there will be down time and mobility moving around etc you’re probably looking more at all kills in 22ish minutes. This leaves you 5 mins of time between cycles/repops. If there is a named who is more resistant or has more hps or dps time was lost doing CC maybe add a minute or 2-3. Still even then you are done but now have 2-3 minutes of down time for repops.

@300 dps (26 second kills): with zero downtime you can kill it all in 11.7 minute. This leaves 15.3 minutes of down time. Knowing that you have to move around … let’s drop that to 11.3 minutes of down time. With naked or unexpected stuff? Take a way a few more minutes and let’s just say a solid 8-9 mins down time.

@400 dps (20 second kills): with zero down time all dead in 9. 18 minutes down time … wait no make that 14 for movement or maybe 12 for other stuff mentioned above.

OK GUYS CONCRETE BS IS DONE — let’s think abstractly.

Down time: it is good for the heart, soul, allows you to take a piss or look at some tantalizing pictures on the intrawebs of that’s what your heart desires. It gives you a moment to breathe, med up, refresh buffs. It allows you to make a sammich or grab another beer. It allows classes like mages to be freshly full mana with each cycle so they don’t have to get stingy on the nukes.

“Safety”: the shorter a fight, the less time for the fight to go wrong. If you drop your kill time from 80 sec to 40 sec to 26 sec to 20 sec … that’s a whole hell of a lot less time for the emergency situation to actually develop. If it does develop you exponentially reduce chance of catastrophe as the encounter is over so much faster. By killing faster; far less reason to even need that slow, extra root or heal. If mobs die faster less cleric mana use per mob - mana saved.

DPS doesn’t have a break point. Anyone capable of abstract thought can understand this. Even in a situation where you are limited by mobs (no more to pull) there is significant benefit in just getting things dead faster. More time to take care of basic bodily functions or just rest the eyes. It also markedly reduces risk because thing die so much faster … it’s why you never needed the extra heals, cc, or “utility” of the shaman.

What if the group is crawling around though? A place like seb is a veritable all you can eat buffet. If you want to move around the 400dps group will be getting literally twice as much xp loot compared to 200. 300 getting 50% more.

Killing things faster does increase safety. But having an extra healer also does this!

When the difference in kill speed is 4 seconds, there isn't much room for the mob to suddenly do something crazy.

An Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman group is already easily capable of outputting 300 DPS. The difference between 300 DPS and 350 DPS (Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage) is 4.3 seconds on a mob with 8000 HP. That means on a cycle with 20 mobs you are getting an extra 80 seconds AFK time on basically a 20 minute AFK as it is. I don't think anybody is going to care about that. I wouldn't. I'd much rather have a lower chance of wiping or having an emergency come up. 20 minutes is already enough to move and med back to full. Medding for 20 minutes gives you back 4000 mana (without C2), and most casters will have around 3000 mana with normal gear, so you don't need the full 20 minutes.

Because of 30 minute spawn times, you are not just getting more kills indefinitely. You keep assuming you will have a constant cycle of mobs, and that realistically isn't the case most of the time, unless you have the zone completely to yourself. But again, if that is the case, the Shaman can Root/Rot trash too for higher DPS.

You are just saying you prefer to have a few more seconds of downtime. That is a perfectly fine preference to have, but that does not mean it is objectively helping your gameplay. Again, nobody is saying you cannot prefer one thing over the other.

[cyxthryth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Killing things faster does increase safety. But having an extra healer also does this!

Can you please demonstrate this with relevant data/evidence such as parses/video from actual - relevant - gameplay?

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When the difference in kill speed is 4 seconds, there isn't much room for the mob to suddenly do something crazy.

The above Quote is simply you sharing your opinion of whether 4 seconds is "much room", which is simply your opinion.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

An Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman group is already easily capable of outputting 300 DPS. The difference between 300 DPS and 350 DPS (Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage) is 4.3 seconds on a mob with 8000 HP. That means on a cycle with 20 mobs you are getting an extra 80 seconds AFK time on basically a 20 minute AFK as it is. I don't think anybody is going to care about that. I wouldn't. I'd much rather have a lower chance of wiping or having an emergency come up. 20 minutes is already enough to move and med back to full. Medding for 20 minutes gives you back 4000 mana (without C2), and most casters will have around 3000 mana with normal gear, so you don't need the full 20 minutes.

The above Quote is simply you sharing your opinion of whether "anybody is going to care about that" and what you'd "much rather have"; which is simply your opinion.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

the Shaman can Root/Rot trash too for higher DPS.

Again, can you please demonstrate this with relevant data/evidence such as parses/video from actual - relevant - gameplay? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are just saying you prefer to have a few more seconds of downtime. That is a perfectly fine preference to have, but that does not mean it is objectively helping your gameplay. Again, nobody is saying you cannot prefer one thing over the other.

The above Quote is simply you sharing your opinion of what another poster "is just saying"; which is simply your opinion.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When the difference in kill speed is 4 seconds, there isn't much room for the mob to suddenly do something crazy.

4 seconds x 27 mobs is 2 minutes longer to kill all 27. 2 minutes less to take a breather.

Beyond that you haven’t actually proven it.

Assuming each ench pet is about 120 dps and the mage and pet are another 120 that’s 360dps … 22.22 second fight.

Sub in the shaman with your 55 and it’s 27.11 seconds. So more like 5 seconds which x27 mobs is adds close to another half minute of down time on top of the above.

What about unlimited mobs? The shaman group could kill 132 per hour. The mage group would look at 162 mobs an hour under unrealistic concrete math circumstances.

But I will emphasize again you have only shown us what you can do in isolated solo videos. 55dps is your apex … best case scenario. I bet the numbers would be very different if you actually joined a fast paced, high dps group and tried to do it fight after fight after fight. Especially with your fairly crappy nuke having such a long cast time … oh and the need to spend so much time standing up TO cast it (not meditating) which will likely have your time drawn and pulled away fairly substantially to canni and torpor.

This is why I gave up on you DSM. You never actually tried. You did something completely different than what the community asked you to do and tried to fill the gap with napkin math.

If you had spent literally 0.01% of the time you have posting in this thread actually DOING IT IN A GROUP, we would have a mountain of data to play with to draw actual comparisons with.

But you didn’t. And you won’t.

Which is why I offer you more GiFs:

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No more napkin math.

Trollollolling trolling trollin’ along!

Tally ho!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

4 seconds x 27 mobs is 2 minutes longer to kill all 27. 2 minutes less to take a breather.

Beyond that you haven’t actually proven it.

Assuming each ench pet is about 120 dps and the mage and pet are another 120 that’s 360dps … 22.22 second fight.

Sub in the shaman with your 55 and it’s 27.11 seconds. So more like 5 seconds which x27 mobs is adds close to another half minute of down time on top of the above.

What about unlimited mobs? The shaman group could kill 132 per hour. The mage group would look at 162 mobs an hour under unrealistic concrete math circumstances.

But I will emphasize again you have only shown us what you can do in isolated solo videos. 55dps is your apex … best case scenario. I bet the numbers would be very different if you actually joined a fast paced, high dps group and tried to do it fight after fight after fight. Especially with your fairly crappy nuke having such a long cast time … oh and the need to spend so much time standing up TO cast it (not meditating) which will likely have your time drawn and pulled away fairly substantially to canni and torpor.

This is why I gave up on you DSM. You never actually tried. You did something completely different than what the community asked you to do and tried to fill the gap with napkin math.

If you had spent literally 0.01% of the time you have posting in this thread actually DOING IT IN A GROUP, we would have a mountain of data to play with to draw actual comparisons with.

But you didn’t. And you won’t.

No more napkin math.

Trollollolling trolling trollin’ along!

Tally ho!

You keep claiming the numbers will change, but have no evidence to prove it. I am honestly astonished at how you cannot understand the basic principle that mob HP/AC/Resists do not change in solo vs. group situations. Unless your group is actively hurting your DPS (in which case the Mage would be affected too), the numbers won't change.

5 seconds isn't going to help more than 4 seconds. Most groups do not have unlimited mobs. When you do, the Shaman can root/rot for 120 DPS with just 3 mobs. So you can close the DPS gap if you care about the 4-5 seconds in this specific scenario.

In a scenario where you are only killing a few tough mobs per hour, the DPS gap also shrinks due to a Shaman's DoTs, and the Shaman's utility will help the group more than a bit of DPS. You certainly aren't getting any more kills per hour here.

[cyxthryth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You keep claiming the numbers will change, but have no evidence to prove it. I am honestly astonished at how you cannot understand the basic principle that mob HP/AC/Resists do not change in solo vs. group situations. Unless your group is actively hurting your DPS (in which case the Mage would be affected too), the numbers won't change.

Hehe. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

5 seconds isn't going to help more than 4 seconds. Most groups do not have unlimited mobs. When you do, the Shaman can root/rot for 120 DPS with just 3 mobs. So you can close the DPS gap if you care about the 4-5 seconds in this specific scenario.

The above Quote is simply you sharing your opinion of what is going to "help more"; which is simply your opinion.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In a scenario where you are only killing a few tough mobs per hour, the DPS gap also shrinks due to a Shaman's DoTs, and the Shaman's utility will help the group more than a bit of DPS. You certainly aren't getting any more kills per hour here.

The above Quote is simply you sharing your opinion of what is going to "help the group more"; which is simply your opinion.

[Troxx]

A mage in a fast paced high dps will put out 100-120 dps. With a good mana pool and some downtime between spawns you can keep it at the higher threshold by nuking more. And in spending that extra mana it gives you the time to med back to full each cycle it is fully sustainable.

DSM posted some videos of him soloing isolated mobs. He estimates 55dps which seems accurate for the single fights he did and what a shaman could do but did not actually ever join a fast moving high dps group to prove he could pull it off when competing with the rest of the group sustainably. How much would be time lost with canni and torpor not nuking? How much would that actually lower shaman dps? We don’t know because he has thus far refused to do it. If his mana pool is deep enough he didn’t have to canni and heal back up then sure its sustainable. But if it IS thusly sustainable … it just widens the gap. If you didn’t need to tap into shaman mana recovery you’re just playing a class that nukes for less with longer cast times and less mana efficiency.

You are effectively a washed out crappier than the mage paired with a terribly low dps pet compared to the buzz saw that is the mage pet.

No matter how you slice it … it is just a failure.

Shamans are not a group DPS class.
The group doesn’t need your utility.

This is not rocket surgery.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A mage in a fast paced high dps will put out 100-120 dps. With a good mana pool and some downtime between spawns you can keep it at the higher threshold by nuking more. And in spending that extra mana it gives you the time to med back to full each cycle it is fully sustainable.

DSM posted some videos of him soloing isolated mobs. He estimates 55dps which seems accurate for the single fights he did and what a shaman could do but did not actually ever join a fast moving high dps group to prove he could pull it off when competing with the rest of the group sustainably. How much would be time lost with canni and torpor not nuking? How much would that actually lower shaman dps? We don’t know because he has thus far refused to do it. If his mana pool is deep enough he didn’t have to canni and heal back up then sure its sustainable. But if it IS thusly sustainable … it just widens the gap. If you didn’t need to tap into shaman mana recovery you’re just playing a class that nukes for less with longer cast times and less mana efficiency.

You are effectively a washed out crappier than the mage paired with a terribly low dps pet compared to the buzz saw that is the mage pet.

No matter how you slice it … it is just a failure.

Shamans are not a group DPS class.
The group doesn’t need your utility.

This is not rocket surgery.

It isn't rocket surgery indeed.

You keep ignoring the higher DPS in situations where you are not chain pulling easy mobs and not allowing the Shaman to root/rot said easy mobs. The 55 DPS number is literally the most constrained DPS position you can be in.

It is basically the equivalent of saying Mage's cannot use their pets when doing DPS. Then you declare that Mage's don't have good DPS. It is just nonsense.

A Shaman can do 150 DPS when root/rotting 4 mobs.

You still haven't proven how variability in groups will affect Shamans differently than Mages, or how DPS will change under the assumption your group isn't actively hurting your DPS.

In a fast moving group, both classes won't be able to med as much (but Shamans can Torpor). In a fast moving group, both classes have less opportunity to cast damage spells if kill speed is fast, etc.

You need to provide evidence that the variability in the group is affecting the Shaman more so than the Mage. Otherwise if a group is doing 20% less DPS for whatever reason, that affects both the Mage and Shaman equally. So it is irrelevant.

[cyxthryth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It isn't rocket surgery indeed.

You keep ignoring the higher DPS in situations where you are not chain pulling easy mobs and not allowing the Shaman to root/rot said easy mobs. The 55 DPS number is literally the most constrained DPS position you can be in.

Do you have a particular amount of experience with "ignoring" that causes you to believe you can speak with such authority on when others "keep ignoring" something?

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It is basically the equivalent of saying Mage's cannot use their pets when doing DPS. Then you declare that Mage's don't have good DPS. It is just nonsense.

The above Quote is simply an example of you sharing your opinion that another post is "nonsense", though - as you have not provided the definition of "nonsense" that you are using - I am not sure what point you think you are making or what fact you think you are refuting.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A Shaman can do 150 DPS when root/rotting 4 mobs.

Originally Posted by cyxthryth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Can you please demonstrate this with relevant data/evidence such as parses/video from actual - relevant (to this discussion) - gameplay?

Hehe. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You still haven't proven how variability in groups will affect Shamans differently than Mages, or how DPS will change under the assumption your group isn't actively hurting your DPS.

You tried to claim:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.

and then you simply contradicted yourself by subsequently posting:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Which belief do you currently hold/"argue" hehe? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Please elaborate for the sake of civil discussion.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In a fast moving group, both classes won't be able to med as much (but Shamans can Torpor). In a fast moving group, both classes have less opportunity to cast damage spells if kill speed is fast, etc.

You need to provide evidence that the variability in the group is affecting the Shaman more so than the Mage. Otherwise if a group is doing 20% less DPS for whatever reason, that affects both the Mage and Shaman equally. So it is irrelevant.

Your posts content - once again - seems to be attempting to tell others what they "need to do" as if you belive that you have some authority over them. You do not.