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  #31  
Old 08-07-2024, 01:54 PM
Solist Solist is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
how to say "im bad at eq" without saying "im bad at eq"
Sometimes I think he is trolling...but yikes.

The crux of the argument
As a community we use pulling assists to pull less mobs. We root cc. We mez CC. We kite/fear/charm to CC. We slow mobs to do less dps. We use discs and tank toons to take less damage. We offtank with pets etc. Everything in everyones power is done to reduce the damage done. Except people log in a cleric, forget all that, mem 4 heals, 2 buffs, and 2 da's and sit still. Click a heal. Sit still.

There isn't an enchanter on the server who has played with a competent max cha cleric who would go back to having a passive healbot cleric merc in the current set of mechanics we have on p99 in regards to possible pulls etc.

TLDR: cha is king. Here is a history of when it wasnt and when it was, and why.

Double TLDR: I've never expained how to play a cleric, and had someone gear for it, ever complain it isn't the most fun they've ever had on the class. The vast majority of people still dont understand how inefficient healing is in everquest. Every class uses every single ability they have to reduce DPS but for some unknown reason noone approaches that with a cleric.

Genesis, but with a dark elf and dumb luck coincidence
I'm sort of lucky as both the pioneer of the low cha cleric on p99, and the high cha cleric on p99. Did it all in all the meta/eras of the server, got to suck a lot too and caught out by changes in patches forcing a big regear, temporarily abandoning the class, relevelling different races, having BiS items and not etc.

Back before the CHA days....

P99 was all about super low CHA clerics in early kunark on blue because crit fail lull pulling was so amazing with someone casting IVU+hitting hide (DE) and pulling nameds from all over HS to safe rooms as single/double pulls effortlessly. More fun was being non kos in HS for the first few months, especially when HT was resistable with like 100DR. On occasion you stacked a few cha items to lull some live mobs if you had to for some of the camps as innate hide wasn't so amazing. But almost exclusively it was a necro/cleric duo for me in there and enc/cleric later. Dark elf fluke of luck right place right time to cotton on to what could be done.

When epics came out it solidified this playstyle as you could have a mage invis the cleric while casting a crit pac @ fungi king or PH. Drag it solo back to under NG with zero risk, DA through the time the mage is summoning an epic pet. Kill king with 2-3 donals BP clicks. I farmed 5+million plat worth of fungi's with Vazdeline. We've got accounts full of fungi's still we dont know the passwords to as we were filling mules so fast. Same comp worked with a warrior cobalt legging me and monk larrikensing me, both could survive 20seconds donals cast, but the mage was the cheesiest duo this server's ever seen at any camp, especially when the pet enraged. The key was reliably getting a crit resist pull started which was comparitively difficult for some other clerics attempting it like Swarws who had too much cha. Dark elf fluke of luck, again.

When Charisma stacking started to be good

Once invis pulling was nerfed the meta shifted to the cleric role being more charisma based in groups and duos etc. Which also sort of meant the previous metas cant ever exist again as it's not like its a patch/progression between these. It was rigid mechanic changes to fix/classicify the server. An emulation of all of blue's changes would be more interesting to me than progression through EQ patches, such is how different the game was at different periods.

It didn't work so well because until velious there was few very high cha easy to obtain items so the server being broken meant it was rife for abusing it.

When it became a realistic playstyle

In classic on green the story was different having all the invis pulling and shit fixed. Only myself (Dont), Bayleigh, and Complete were rocking substantially OCD charisma builds that I know of. I certainly saw noone doing what we were doing on green or teal aside from us.... And we levelled faster than anyone else and farmed more than anyone else, especially Bayleigh who had seemingly 5+hrs a day more playtime. Being classic I needed a full HP gear set for manastoning and killing mobs, and a full cha set (lol drake legs+opalline ears+jewellery etc etc levels of garbage minmaxing) to control rooms and mobility. No other clerics were running around lguk soloing all nameds, not even most duo's were. Alts stacked with guises etc as you could solo that shit late at night while no people had a list toon in zone. Made a shitload of plat just being mobile enough to get through CT, guk, solb, sola etc for rezzes that others couldn't.

Kunark doesn't change that much except for addition of donals and more wis your mana set as not a lot of cha is added in gear in that whole expansion meaning you're still swapping a lot of equipment. Kunark as a charisma cleric with the current P99 mechanics is kinda a dogshit time to be alive to be honest. You're just a cleric with less bagspace, in a time when you need bagspace for hyperfocussed PR+MR sets as well.

Winter is coming
With Velious the cha meta is stronger today than ever as it's so easy to stack that charisma without much compromise on the cleric in just a few slots with tradable gear for levelling. At the upper end some of those are BiS items for mana & CHA anyway so its somewhat like a HP/AC argument, where you cant actually pick between them as some of the BiS has the highest of both relatively. In other gear comparisons they're so close that the compromise is worth it.

Between a jester crown, mistletoe waist, matchless bracers and once 46 an epic+dragon shield you're pretty well covered for your cha needs levelling with a +cha start stats regardless of race. Not like you're gimping yourself now velious is out. To throw a few thousand plat at an alt cleric your only buys would be those high ticket CHA items, the rest can be garbage wis/mana crap like every other person since ever.

A raiding cleric should be peak mana and FT. A low man cleric in a few boring roles (ST clears, prot/tola duo, xenovorash duo, HoT 6man etc)...Sure. For everything else stack that CHA. We're realistically talking 3.7k and 220cha compared to 4.1k and 80cha which are fairly relative/comparable builds dkp/plat wise. I know what I'd pick for a personal cleric and what I pick for a guild bot every time. Laughs in CT brain.

As for the enchanter. A good cleric will carry a bad enchanter and make them look pretty competent. A good enchanter doesn't become any better with a bad cleric. The power dynamic doesn't work in reverse, bad merc clerics reacting with remedy wont change the situation very often for the enc. Some even just stand back and let the enc die, and reset/med/buff for 20 fucking minutes[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Exping in this velious era on a cleric alt or new toon, focussed on cha will make a hell of a name for yourself. It's still a novelty to see for most people and in a full group setting it's much much more mana efficient to control the pulls than it is to CC them, or just to break up a monotanous camp and be able to crawl.

Yeah but is it all just theory?
I've been fortunate enough to be the first on the server with a hosh stick at level 5 after delevelling, and that was well before VP was farm status. Noone had a keyed alt even. I got to level up to 60 with that (and donals from 45) and low cha. I got to do it again without a stick until looting one around level 40ish as a different race low cha cleric. To do it again with a hosh stick/restored original toon and more cha as I finally came around to it and changes to mechanics happenned. To do 1-50 on green as focussed on charisma as possible in classic. To do it again with a completely charisma focussed uber twink staff cleric (Easily). And to do it as a non hosh staff moderate twink cleric stacked with the usual cha velious items. It's eye opening to have the displeasure of playing non charisma clerics at times where I feel like it's equivelant to playing broken class, and I also think about all the years I was slow to adapt to some of these changes. Like the years I spent levelling two rangers...wasted.

It's class defining in low man & group content once you do it. Level a shaman without ever slowing a mob. Or a ranger without harmony. Monk without training fd. A rogue without hide/sneak are examples of how large the change is. Refer above to double TLDR, healing is the least efficient thing you can do in EQ.

More TLDR old man stories. Sorry
Cheesing fungi king has sorta been my thing for as long as I can remember here, and I devolped the ultimate cheese method to do this camp every single pathing, code, mechanics change for the last 12+ years. Other specific people focussed on their niches and did them well. Some people hyperfocussed on prot/tola in kunark, others on seahorse belt sploits, others on minmaxing epic MQ camps, some went nuts on being PoM nerds and getting that perfected etc. Fungi was mine, more than anyone else, and for far more plat than anyone else as it suited my playtimes the best.

There is one period post velious without donals, and with push interrupt existing that the meta heavily favored shamans for the reason that most monks didn't have the outright AC to tank it reliably without slow and without free donals CH's. Monk/shaman was a powerhouse until it was commonplace to have 1300ish AC monks at every street corner to duo it with. A 1500AC monk can duo it with a lvl 40 cleric flawlessly.

The donals+invis pull was unreal. With invis pull nerf he shaman+monk was unreal until the push nerf. With the push nerf and invis pull gone+finally some geared monks the monk+cleric became the complete joke method. Levelled my latest cleric from 40-60 there. Levelled lots of guild bot clerics there farming tunics and dkp.

Fungi comps since I brought it up, in order of effectiveness.
The second easiest is just a EC geared enc and a half naked monk. Pull a ph to a krup pet. Throw aggro in to king so monk gets summoned on a break (totem clicks, bio orb spam etc). Stonestance tank a pet break. But this meta requires 'splitting' the king, takes longer to get in camp, but fastest to kill of any good duo.

Most nerds do it monk/monk now because near BiS monks are a commodity and most people who have the patience to farm king also have the patience to farm enough dkp to make a red lizard. Downsides is barrier to entry. No split needed, nice fast kills. Long time to wait to reset if there's an issue. Same applies to Mnk+sk/war/rog/rng etc, which all work similarly.

Monk/sham still works but requires a split, and also poor RNG can be dangerous. You remove that RNG of slow resist or charm break with the mnk/cle or mnk/melee.

That camp is such a great way to demonstrate to people how shit at the game they are if they can't make simple comps work. Enc/mnk is a prime example where only competent enc's can do it and the monk can be useless NPC. Mnk/cle is a prime example where only competent monks can do it and the cleric can be useless NPC following 4 voice commands while playing on a different server simultaneously. Monk/Monk or Monk/SK (even mnk/war, mnk/rog etc) all highlight people with poor situational awareness. It's such a niche little spot to expose weaknesses and ADHD people who cant fuckin help going exploring and cant help moving about unnessesarily. Every spaz kittens tagged dude you drag down there and rez just fucking yeets off and dies as they cant handle being told to not move.

Also gnomes MVP, wall vision bro...Goggles.
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  #32  
Old 08-07-2024, 03:22 PM
Solist Solist is offline
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Unchainedfury: bro invented stacking hp/ac on a necro!
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  #33  
Old 08-07-2024, 03:30 PM
Toxigen Toxigen is offline
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Originally Posted by Solist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Every spaz kittens tagged dude you drag down there and rez just fucking yeets off and dies as they cant handle being told to not move.
lmao this was a great post and then this at the end made it 10/10
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  #34  
Old 08-07-2024, 05:07 PM
Solist Solist is offline
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Oh also since the 7min pacify stealth ninja patch shortly after green launched, mana free Donals pacify is massive compared to an enchanter using 80% mana to pac a whole room sometimes.

The days of calm spam long gone mostly.
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  #35  
Old 08-07-2024, 07:44 PM
Zuranthium Zuranthium is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Sometimes I think he is trolling...but yikes.
Yikes to your frequent bad takes and misinfo. You completely failed to address the points I wrote, because you are wrong and have no argument.

Factually, if you don't want to risk dying, you can not Lull an otherwise unwinnable camp with a Cleric. The risk is extremely relevant if ever playing the game without port bots and alts stacked everywhere, aka anybody who is new to a server or simply wants to play in their own way. Death will frequently mean wasting a LONG time getting back to camp or outright losing the camp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
No other clerics were running around lguk soloing all nameds, not even most duo's were. Alts stacked with guises etc as you could solo that shit late at night while no people had a list toon in zone.
You benefited from playing late at night. Not because you were doing anything special. Any other Cleric who knows what they're doing can do the same thing with -20 Charisma, +20 Wisdom. You don't magically have all your Lulls working with +20 Charisma. All you're getting is a 4% increased chance, while having less mana to work with for the harder pulls. There are definitely times you died from Lull failing, and who knows how many of those times you would have lived if you had more mana.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Made a shitload of plat just being mobile enough to get through CT, guk, solb, sola etc for rezzes that others couldn't.
Again, 20 CHA doesn't suddenly make it possible to move through those places with no risk. You will still fail at times and any other Cleric with decent CHA can potentially do the same thing.

This is why it's sometimes better to use Root + camp if you're a new char without a GCD clicky, particularly in actual Classic EQ when Lull was resisted a lot more and Channeling was less effective. When you open with Root you're gaining more time, instead of starting to cast Root after the Lull failed, while MOBs are rushing at you. Even with a GCD clicky there's still a bit of delay.

Lull is a gamble, and in actual classic it would essentially never work for trying to dungeon crawl through non-green cons. You'd pretty much always get a crit failure after 1 room at most. That's why people back in the day were so envious of Druids/Rangers using Harmony in the zones where they could - because it actually worked.

The Guk example is not too relevant for playing p99 right now either. Sure when Green launched it was highly lucrative to just live there. Bind at the zoneline and reduce the downside of dying. But in Velious it's ideal to bind in Plane of Mischief (hard to access the zone otherwise + quick access to other Velious zones), and you generally don't want to be changing that bind. Or in Kunark era when you're bound at the pots you probably won't want to give that up, and it's always a significant run during Kunark era to get back to most dungeons, since you can't port directly to EJ or SF.
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  #36  
Old 08-07-2024, 09:19 PM
Elizondo Elizondo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Oh also since the 7min pacify stealth ninja patch shortly after green launched, mana free Donals pacify is massive compared to an enchanter using 80% mana to pac a whole room sometimes.

The days of calm spam long gone mostly.
This is a great point

Pally soothe arms are also legit

It's laughably OP to have click free pacify spells. That bracer still sells for 8-9k on Green. It's that good.
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  #37  
Old 08-08-2024, 05:54 AM
Solist Solist is offline
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Fucking this guy. Lol. Have fun.
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  #38  
Old 08-09-2024, 10:10 AM
Rimitto Rimitto is offline
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Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Wizard isn’t a dps class.
the hell it's not? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
literally what the hell else do they do?
pretty sure you're screwing with me on this one cause, if the forums really don't think wizards are dps, then just.... dammmmmmmmnnn
site needs to be purged with fire, wizard fire. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
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  #39  
Old 08-09-2024, 10:24 AM
Insaiyan Insaiyan is offline
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Imagine being a newer player trying to discern this thread.
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  #40  
Old 08-09-2024, 12:05 PM
Jimjam Jimjam is online now
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Originally Posted by Rimitto [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
the hell it's not? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
literally what the hell else do they do?
pretty sure you're screwing with me on this one cause, if the forums really don't think wizards are dps, then just.... dammmmmmmmnnn
site needs to be purged with fire, wizard fire. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I have a wizard. Fairly recently hit 60 so I remember at least some of the grind. However, do understand I am a terrible wizard player. Rincewind. Take my anecdotes with salt.

Wizards aren’t dps. They aren’t much tbh. Their best spell is root, but have a couple of tactical stuns loaded too. Snare and harvest I keep memmed. A damage absorb is helpful. Maybe mem one nuke. The last slot is flavour - eyeball, maybe rain. Sometimes I even load the top up ds if there is no competing buffs. Basically wizards are bottom tier CC BUT they still do that better than dps.

Why aren’t they dps? Dps is a measure of sustained damage and the damage they can do vs medtime is not good. With bard, c2 and potG that isn’t the case neither is it the case in AoE groups, but those are exceptional circumstances. Not even nuke robe or a mana free pet will help tbh.

But what about their big fast casting nukes? Well, wizards do okay at instantaneous damage or bursts, but I don’t consider this dps. This is more like something they can do every 15 mins or so if you have been frugal with mana. It can be very helpful, but it isn’t really dps. It is just CC by elimination.

Anyway, thats how I see wizard in a groupcontext. On a raid boss they can dps okay, but I’ve found melee kill bosses fine so it is better to save mana for TL to pivot fast to next boss (i’m most likely to raid if i have free time and it is a quake).

Ymmv

Edit: i also wanted to throw in a hot take cos imo suggesting wiz in a clr vs pal thread is in itself an irrelevant hottake.
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