Discussion: Play Nice (Training, Bind Camping)

[Pudge]

ppl have had massive discussions on training in the past.. could dig up a link.

training: should be illegal. only way to enforce is fraps or it didn't happen. or GM witness. this makes a clear cut line: if you don't have fraps, you can't say shit. ppl will learn to not waste GM time when their account gets suspended by uthgaard for petitioning "soandso trained me, check the logs and ban him"

there is obviously a judgement call that will have to be made as to what constitutes a "train" - was it a true accident, how many mobs were involved, is the environment one where mob agro is inevitable? etc. but whatever the judgements be, it will be better to have the "trainer" cry about gm favoritism than to have a server full of clerics, bards, and monks "pvping" you with an army of npcs

bind camping: should be legal. just make it so ppl don't lose exp if they are bind camped. i would like to be able to bind camp an enemy guild to prevent bind rushers from returning to the battlefield..

i posted before a suggestion that maybe: if you are in your bind zone, naked, and haven't casted any spells/attacked anyone, then when you die (to pvp) you don't lose exp.

Bind rushing: allowed, but do things like when you're killed in pvp, have 0 mana when you respawn

LnS: on vztz by the end of the server we wound up with: if the losing guild requests LnS, it must be granted, and the loser cannot come back for 1 hour. so if the loser wanted to try and keep fighting, he could. when he had enough, he could request LnS. in guild pvp, the officers or someone claiming to be in charge would call the LnS, and it would be for the entire guild/crew (guilds like to have unguilded 'members' on pvp servers).

however back in the day I also enjoyed trying to get my corpse from corpse campers. i don't know how many ppl would prefer an LnS system over corpse-campage though, especially with exp loss on pvp death.

Right now, i'm leaning towards... let ppl corpse camp. whoever died can log on an alt or something and wait till the camper is gone.

but this also ties in with /whoing ppl who are anon. i'd rather /anon didn't work and that you could tell when someone was done corpse camping you... (on vztz /anon didn't work)

[Aenor]

This is pretty much my answer for all points of discussion. The less gm enforcement required the better. Don't be like SOE and have unenforceable play nice rules that, when you do enforce them, you will be accused of selectively enforcing them.

[SearyxTZ]

Enforce against training if you actually have the staff/manpower to do it and they have thick enough skin to deal with that shit, plus the competency to realize the difference between an intentional train and an unintentional one (Sirken was good)

Realize that this is going to be problematic either way though - enforced or not.

Reason being....

FYI, training is the hardest of any PnP to actually prove or come to a conclusion about as a GM.

You have to derive intent, which is fucking impossible. If they were bringing in the mobs cause PvP was required before someone engaged or killed the mob, or just trained...

That. It's a very difficult thing to enforce or judge accurately, even when you are in the zone watching.

[Ennoia]

Originally Posted by Pudge [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

ppl have had massive discussions on training in the past.. could dig up a link.

training: should be illegal. only way to enforce is fraps or it didn't happen. or GM witness. this makes a clear cut line: if you don't have fraps, you can't say shit. ppl will learn to not waste GM time when their account gets suspended by uthgaard for petitioning "soandso trained me, check the logs and ban him"

there is obviously a judgement call that will have to be made as to what constitutes a "train" - was it a true accident, how many mobs were involved, is the environment one where mob agro is inevitable? etc. but whatever the judgements be, it will be better to have the "trainer" cry about gm favoritism than to have a server full of clerics, bards, and monks "pvping" you with an army of npcs

bind camping: should be legal. just make it so ppl don't lose exp if they are bind camped. i would like to be able to bind camp an enemy guild to prevent bind rushers from returning to the battlefield..

i posted before a suggestion that maybe: if you are in your bind zone, naked, and haven't casted any spells/attacked anyone, then when you die (to pvp) you don't lose exp.

Bind rushing: allowed, but do things like when you're killed in pvp, have 0 mana when you respawn

LnS: on vztz by the end of the server we wound up with: if the losing guild requests LnS, it must be granted, and the loser cannot come back for 1 hour. so if the loser wanted to try and keep fighting, he could. when he had enough, he could request LnS. in guild pvp, the officers or someone claiming to be in charge would call the LnS, and it would be for the entire guild/crew (guilds like to have unguilded 'members' on pvp servers).

however back in the day I also enjoyed trying to get my corpse from corpse campers. i don't know how many ppl would prefer an LnS system over corpse-campage though, especially with exp loss on pvp death.

Right now, i'm leaning towards... let ppl corpse camp. whoever died can log on an alt or something and wait till the camper is gone.

but this also ties in with /whoing ppl who are anon. i'd rather /anon didn't work and that you could tell when someone was done corpse camping you... (on vztz /anon didn't work)

You're so ass backwards I can't even laugh because laughing at retards is mean.

Making training legal will get rid of most of the petitions the staff has to deal with. It's going to happen anyway, just let it happen.

Bind Camping is just stupid. Who cares if you're not losing XP when you're bind camped if you can't go anywhere? The waste of time being stuck there while some dickhead kills you over and over is more aggravating than losing XP.

Same thing with Corpse Camping.

[Kope]

Originally Posted by Ennoia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You're so ass backwards I can't even laugh because laughing at retards is mean.

Making training legal will get rid of most of the petitions the staff has to deal with. It's going to happen anyway, just let it happen.

Bind Camping is just stupid. Who cares if you're not losing XP when you're bind camped if you can't go anywhere? The waste of time being stuck there while some dickhead kills you over and over is more aggravating than losing XP.

Same thing with Corpse Camping.

Ennoia I'm honestly not sure what you're thinking here.

Training - why would you incentivise training? Making training "ok" isn't a good idea. Even if you can't take care of it every time if you make it a rule and enforce it when you can there will be more PvP and less training involved in higher end fights (say trak fights)

Bind camping - this i do kinda agree with you on, except for the fact Rogean has said multiple times they're pretty serious about XP loss on pvp deaths.

[Envious]

FYI, training is the hardest of any PnP to actually prove or come to a conclusion about as a GM.

You have to derive intent, which is fucking impossible. If they were bringing in the mobs cause PvP was required before someone engaged or killed the mob, or just trained...

Deriving intent is not possible. Your asking for shit. These issues have been discussed at fucking length a dozen goddamned times.

GMs on R99 should have 1 fuking purpose, to handle mechanics and things of the such. Getting them involved in any PK'ing activities will kill your server. GMs get involved, make decisions, people question it, then people leave, then there is no PvP, then more ppl leave, then server dead.

[pasi]

Originally Posted by Envious [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

FYI, training is the hardest of any PnP to actually prove or come to a conclusion about as a GM.

You have to derive intent, which is fucking impossible. If they were bringing in the mobs cause PvP was required before someone engaged or killed the mob, or just trained...

Deriving intent is not possible. Your asking for shit. These issues have been discussed at fucking length a dozen goddamned times.

GMs on R99 should have 1 fuking purpose, to handle mechanics and things of the such. Getting them involved in any PK'ing activities will kill your server. GMs get involved, make decisions, people question it, then people leave, then there is no PvP, then more ppl leave, then server dead.

[Rushmore]

If you allow someone to bind camp you're an idiot.

Training shouldn't be allowed but if you get caught by GM or Fraps your character is deleted.
Why do GMs in the past continue to suspend a player!?!? It does nothing.

1) First Time Offender ....Delete Character
2) Second Time Offender ....Delete Character and Bind IP.

If you allow training more people will roll monks, Sk, Necro just to take advantage and the population will go down.

[Envious]

In all frankness and seriousness...

Just keep the GMs the fuck off R99.

The only dev / GM that has even been wanted in the PvP forums has been you (Rogean).

Just keep the GMs off R99. Get a couple to do char stuck, corpse under world, zones down, etc... game mechanics.

Sorry to respond with less than ample patience, but I have been preaching this for 3 or 4 years...

[Lazortag]

Originally Posted by Envious [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In all frankness and seriousness...

Just keep the GMs the fuck off R99.

The only dev / GM that has even been wanted in the PvP forums has been you (Rogean).

Just keep the GMs off R99. Get a couple to do char stuck, corpse under world, zones down, etc... game mechanics.

Sorry to respond with less than ample patience, but I have been preaching this for 3 or 4 years...

What about rules that are easy to enforce (like bind camping)? The deterrent value of being punished for something like that is enough to make most people not do it. It's not going to burn out the GM staff since virtually no one would be dumb enough to risk doing it.

Yeah training isn't easy to catch, but that's just a reason for needing a high standard of evidence before punishing anyone. If there's not enough evidence, then just don't get involved. And most blatant training should be solved by casting root anyway. I fail to see how this is a big deal. If you don't have a rule against training there will be about a hundred times more of it.