AC softcap and low level hardcap discussion

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In the data above, going from 207 worn AC to 386 worn AC reduces damage by about 6.5%. It may be a bit higher if I ran even longer parses, as we see the 386 worn AC parse was basically identical to the 300 worn AC parse damage-wise.

Are you brave enough to conduct a similar test in Banded Armor? It would be good to see the improvement of a 100pp set of armour vs upper end.

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

On longer parses, we start to see a more consistent drop in damage as we increase AC. We also see an increase in Minimum hits, and a decrease in maximum hits.

It looks like the softcap is in effect well past 217 worn AC. The issue is simply that the softcap returns are quite small, which is expected for Shamans and Rangers.

My previous data sets with 400 hits per set were noisy enough to mask the subtle decrease in damage. I am thinking that is what happened in the Ranger thread as well. I don't think they were generally parsing around 1000 hits per AC value.

It is easy to see why people accused Haynar of having a hardcap on AC at high levels. He said he was running 3 hour parses to test his changes, and most people aren't gathering that much data per AC value.

This does show that AC has large diminishing returns past the softcap for at least some classes, which is why people don't feel like it does much. In the data above, going from 207 worn AC to 386 worn AC reduces damage by about 6.5%. It may be a bit higher if I ran even longer parses, as we see the 386 worn AC parse was basically identical to the 300 worn AC parse damage-wise. Considering that the 386 worn AC parse had like half of the max hits and 12 more min hits, that may just be unlucky RNG.

Good analysis. Nice to see you appreciate how the noise in a 400-hit parse can make it hard to see the impact of small effects. The screenshot/spreadsheet I posted earlier has the number of hits I parsed in the ranger thread; you can see there's two high-quality parses plus a bunch of noisy couple-hundred parses.

Just like it's possible that the 300 and 386 AC parses you took could be similar due to fluky RNG, it's also possible it's an accurate representation of some underlying mechanism. One of your earlier parses showed exactly 1 hit for max damage; for any metrics relying on the count of max hits that's clearly going to be too noisy to be of use. Not a criticism! I think you're applying the appropriate skepticism, I'm just riffing on questions of data quality.

This is also why I like to first skim the data looking for any fluky RNG that might make analysis unreliable. By doing that before further analysis I can avoid any subconscious bias to keep data that supports my hypothesis or throw out data that contradicts it.

One thing I'm very interested in seeing is some parses at those same AC values for your shaman against a different target. I'd love to see you do some parses against Shiel or some other level 40 mob, because then we can overlap our parses and also see if there's any mob-specific effects like the squelch point hypothesis from the other thread.

[sogundordor]

Really appreciate all the work DSM's put in!

"I added a low level raw ac cap of level * 6 + 25." Haynar said...
(217-25)/6=32
if 217 worn ac is the soft cap, then "low level" means lv32?

i made some graph easier to read =P
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Hrmm soft cap happen around 217 for both Lv45 and Lv50, what about "squelching theory" ?

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by sogundordor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hrmm soft cap happen around 217 for both Lv45 and Lv50, what about "squelching theory" ?

In vanilla, PC offence skills cap around level 40, staying the same through 50. Perhaps NPCs have a similar lock on their attack (or 'wrath' as I think dsm coined it)?

If the idea of squelching (that the player's worn AC is just completly drowning the mob's 'wrath' so any slight signal of improvement from extra ac is lost in the noise of randomness) is correct, then could it be feasible that level 45 and 50 mobs have similar wrath just how lvl 45 and 50 vanilla melees have similar offence, and so 45 and 50 mobs similar squelch point in terms of raw worn ac?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Are you brave enough to conduct a similar test in Banded Armor? It would be good to see the improvement of a 100pp set of armour vs upper end.

I do plan on lower AC tests on my Shaman to find the softcap, but I probably won't have time over the next few days. I have to keep torporing myself to stay alive. The level 5 tests were easier since Fungi did all the work for me, I could do something else while it was going on.

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In vanilla, PC offence skills cap around level 40, staying the same through 50. Perhaps NPCs have a similar lock on their attack (or 'wrath' as I think dsm coined it)?

If the idea of squelching (that the player's worn AC is just completly drowning the mob's 'wrath' so any slight signal of improvement from extra ac is lost in the noise of randomness) is correct, then could it be feasible that level 45 and 50 mobs have similar wrath just how lvl 45 and 50 vanilla melees have similar offence, and so 45 and 50 mobs similar squelch point in terms of raw worn ac?

NPCs have the same skill caps and level requirements as players as far as I am aware. This is why Warrior mobs don't get bash until level 6, for example. Warrior mobs should get +5 offense and +5 weapon skills each level, until they cap.

You are correct that a level 45 mob and a level 50 should have similar wrath due to the skill caps. However, mobs should have different strength values, and strength is used in wrath. So a Hill Giant would probably have more wrath than a human mob of the same level.

Weapon skill gives 1 Wrath per 1 Skill point.

Strength gives less than 1 Wrath per 1 STR point. If you have 100 total STR, you get ~17 wrath. 150 STR is ~50 wrath. 200 STR is ~84 wrath. 255 STR is 120 wrath. This is using my DPS calculator.

ATK also increases Wrath. In my DPS calculator I use 1 Wrath per 1 ATK, but this may be a bit different on P99. The EQMU code has a multiplier for ATK based on era, so I am not sure if they adjusted that on P99.

I would imagine buffed NPCs would have higher wrath if they have STR buffs and/or ATK buffs. Like an SK mob using Grim Aura.

[kjs86z2]

can we get a TLDR

maybe something like "more armor more good"

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by kjs86z2 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

can we get a TLDR

maybe something like "more armor more good"

Anyone needing specific information for their class should be parsing and analyzing their own data. There are like 50 geonids and running averages in HoT seems fairly reliable as long as you aren’t accounting for drakes which flee. Equip a shield, take it off, throw the HGL’s in the backpack. Do that for 10-20 mobs with similar buffs and see what happens. Or just parse on one specific kind of mob if you really want to lock down variables.

Parsers are free and the info you gain on the user side is invaluable.

[kjs86z2]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Anyone needing specific information for their class should be parsing and analyzing their own data. There are like 50 geonids and running averages in HoT seems fairly reliable as long as you aren’t accounting for drakes which flee. Equip a shield, take it off, throw the HGL’s in the backpack. Do that for 10-20 mobs with similar buffs and see what happens. Or just parse on one specific kind of mob if you really want to lock down variables.

Parsers are free and the info you gain on the user side is invaluable.

ok so more armor more good

got it

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by kjs86z2 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

ok so more armor more good

got it

It depends. The low level worn AC clamp means more armor does not always mean more good.

Using the level * 6 + 25 worn AC clamp formula, a level 20 can only use 145 worn AC. After that all worn AC above 145 gets clamped to 145. So 400 worn AC = 145 worn AC for all classes at level 20.

So far it seems like the low level worn AC clamp applies to levels 1-50, at least according to the EQEMU code.

[Duik]

Originally Posted by kjs86z2 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

can we get a TLDR

maybe something like "more armor more good"

At this point, it is just a numbers game my friend.

It's the game within the game.
Having said that, I would read with interest whether the make/buy banded armor makes as big of a difference here. I predict yes. Tea leaves.