FYI

[Mardur]

sero is almost as annoying as hasbinbad.

[karsten]

very similar in style, that is definitely true

[Stibe]

Originally Posted by sero [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Young wikipedia doctor.

[Harrison]

Which I don't understand because since the first time we shot the shit in Lguk you've been nothing but helpful and pleasant *shrug*

I can be a dick so I understand where my hate comes from lol (that and I have zero tolerance for pieces of shit and/or stupidity)

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by Mardur [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1 dude camping a mob for an AC ring = playing EverQuest
1 dude killing hasten whenever he spawns and forcing people to pay him to stop = griefing

Both are monopolizing content from other players in order to make money. Somehow one is acceptable and one isn't?

So now we can't kill the Avenging Caitiff in Mistmoore in case someone wants to turn in the fangs?

Where do we draw the line here?

[Mardur]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Both are monopolizing content from other players in order to make money. Somehow one is acceptable and one isn't?

So now we can't kill the Avenging Caitiff in Mistmoore in case someone wants to turn in the fangs?

Where do we draw the line here?

There's no line to draw, as long as you possess basic common sense. People who camp the AC ring to sell are doing it to profit and progress their character, they're not doing it with the intention to piss people off. However, there's no gain in kill Hasten so that others can't turn in their ring, the only point in doing that would be to piss people off (griefing). Killing the avenging caitiff offers experience and loot, again to progress your character. However, if someone shows up and requests you wait a minute to kill the caitiff so they can perform a turn in, it'd be pretty shitty not to fill that request.

So yes, I guess these issues can be quite complicated for those without basic thinking skills.

[Badmartigan]

Originally Posted by sero [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Mardur's argument this entire time has been manufacturing obvious strawmen and then refuting them. It's pretty funny that when I pointed out his defense was obviously a strawman argument, his response was... to post another obvious strawman.

I didn't say issue any orders, didn't say he wasn't allowed to do it, and I didn't issue any position on MQing. I just called him a douche. What he's doing is a classic illustration of douche-bag-likbehavior. I don't know why this is so hard for you to comprehend, but clearly I'm far from alone in that opinion.

Sorry you feel that way.. But you don't even know me.. Calling me a douche for playing everquest is about as awesome as playing an everquest messageboard..

Kan we still be frendz? Lol

[Badmartigan]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Both are monopolizing content from other players in order to make money. Somehow one is acceptable and one isn't?

So now we can't kill the Avenging Caitiff in Mistmoore in case someone wants to turn in the fangs?

Where do we draw the line here?

I'm not monopolizing content.. There's 2 ac spawns and I can only loot 1 ring.. I also raid full time ^^so it's open alot.

Also, if someone wants to camp hasten/a drake/maldyn to try and get BZ that's fine..people can come back the next day and do the turn i'n .. No biggie..

Theres no douchebaggery at hand.. No one is depriving other players of camps.. It's all gravy baby...

What Mardur said about someone killing hasten and not letting someone do a MQ turn is a douche bag move.. If it's done to ONLY block the progression of other players..'but if the legitamitly camping BZ I'll happily come back the next day..

Case closed.. Trolls be Trollin elsewhere nao

[karsten]

yeah, i mean, if you want to take it to the extremes of equating killing the ac to killing hasten, you would also logically have to say that anyone who kills anything is griefing everyone else on the server due to their potentially also having been able to kill the mob, it gets silly

[YendorLootmonkey]

No, I was just making a weird point...

Before the MQ fix... you camped AC, got your ring, and moved on, because once you got your jboots, since you couldn't MQ the ring, there was no point in continuing to camp the AC. Unless you wanted to camp the AC and lock down the corpse and sell "loot rights", which is kind of douchebaggy if you ask me... do your quest and move the fuck on so someone else can do it.

Now, after the MQ fix for this particular quest, there's no reason to move on. You can "monopolize" content because now there is no limit to the number of AC rings you can get and sell the MQ rights for. Instead of getting yours and moving the fuck on so someone else can get theirs, you deprive other people of that content in order to sell that content back to them at a reasonable rate of return for your time. Let the record show that BadMartigan originally stated:

"Btw if anyone is i'n need of jboots mq I do about 1mq a day.. I camp the ring around the clock"

and then backed down to:

"I'm not monopolizing content.. There's 2 ac spawns and I can only loot 1 ring.. I also raid full time ^^so it's open alot."

So there's at least 1 ring a day that should be going to someone else who would like to camp it, that it will not go to because now that the ring is MQ-able, he's right back at it instead of moving on.

So why can't someone sell him "the ability to MQ the ring" for a "fee" of 4-5K by permitting Hadden to live long enough for him and the client to do the MQ? I mean, it's all about playing the game however you want, right? Why would that be griefing? Hadden needs to die for BZ to spawn, so it's not like Hadden should be deemed "unkillable". He yields XP. He probably has some cloth cap and gold pieces for loot. It would be just as enterprising for someone to do that as it is enterprising for someone with the available time to camp the AC on a daily basis.

The argument might be that it's not depriving anyone of content, since he offers it up for sale. Tell that to a melee class that can't generate plat as easily as a caster, not to mention the melee has to spend huge amounts of plat to even be effective, when instead they could just camp the AC themselves. Except they can't because everyone who should have moved on after they got their ring is back there selling MQ rights.

Or maybe the argument is that he's providing a service to those who do not have the time to camp the AC themselves. But isn't that the meat of the entire casual player vs. hardcore argument? That the casual player needs to put in the time in order to get the same loot as the hardcore player? Or is it merely that the casual player needs to put in the time to get the same loot as the hardcore player, or just have enough plat to purchase said loot off of the hardcore player?

So what's the difference between a AC ring MQ'er depriving others of content for a fee, and someone charging that AC ring MQ'er a fee to not deprive them of the opportunity to turn the shit in with Hasten?