Pal VS SK end game

[mattydef]

I would also bring up the fact that a well timed stun to interrupt a gate/heal/ice comet makes a hell of a difference but they'll just come back and say something like "oh yea well the cleric in the group can do that". Everything a pally brings to a group is apparently disregarded because "another class can do it", but when you point out that another class does what SKs can do but better, they make excuses about how an SK is still somehow more valuable.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you want to play a tank that relies on FD you should just be playing a monk and do some actual damage.

Can't wait til DSM comes in with a wall o' text trying to convince me that SKs are better than monks in X, Y, and Z.

In a group setting you are correct, a Monk who can tank and pull is going to out-perform an SK in most situations. But in solo situations SK's are generally better than Monks due to how much utility they have with their spells. Fear kiting is more efficient than face tanking as a Monk. Even though their DPS is higher, they have more downtime.

SK's are not stigmatized in group settings, so you don't have much of an edge when getting groups as a Monk. Fungi Tunic camp will take a Monk or an SK as a puller.

When determining if you should play SK or Monk, it really just depends on how much grouping/raiding you want to do. If you solo a lot and group/raid occasionally, SK will be better. Otherwise, Monk is better.

Originally Posted by mattydef [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I would also bring up the fact that a well timed stun to interrupt a gate/heal/ice comet makes a hell of a difference but they'll just come back and say something like "oh yea well the cleric in the group can do that". Everything a pally brings to a group is apparently disregarded because "another class can do it", but when you point out that another class does what SKs can do but better, they make excuses about how an SK is still somehow more valuable.

SK's can fear to interrupt gate, so Paladin's don't have a monopoly on spell interrupts.

But as I keep saying, if you are in a group where you can just pull mobs without FD, you probably aren't being bothered by spell casters hehe. Just murder them before they can cast and move on, or let the spell land because you are resisting it anyway.

You need to use a different argument than "FD isn't needed" to justify a Paladin, because literally any class can just pull mobs into camp hehe.

[Keebz]

As a 60 monk and SK, monk is definitely better as frankly it's broken, but SK is underrated, probably because it's mostly played by shitters. A few points for SK: 1) way easier to gear 2) surprisingly capable puller in not ToV 3) can tank non-velious dragons

As for paladin vs sk raiding, since the soul fire nerf, it's paladin basically every time, except maybe PoF or when you need a pet for something.

For group and solo content, SK is excellent and really fun. Paladin might be able to heal through some shit that sk can't, but they also can't pull fungi or other high end stuff so who cares.

[Danth]

DSM, problem with being both a tank and puller in the same group is it slows the group down. Full groups don't tend to like that. Usually a regular group will want a person doing one or the other, but not both. That is not class-specific and applies to anyone.

In a generic full group I'd usually rather have my paladin's toolset than my shadowknight's. Either class does fine in good groups, but the paladin has better capability to cover for mistakes or weaknesses in other folks if things aren't ideal. That being said, this thread was referring to "end game." That's a nebulous term, but realistically on P1999 exceedingly few people are hanging out in full groups at level cap. A few farm teams might, but it's a small portion of the population. Otherwise full groups are mostly for leveling.

At level cap the overwhelming majority of players are either raiding, or doing stuff smallman in solo/duo/trios. Raids have already been discussed at length. Which class is better in a smallman group depends mostly on who the other partners are. Paladin pairs better with enchanter. Shadowknight pairs better with shaman. On balance I prefer the shadowknight's toolset when not in a full or nearly full group. It's a strong class and a good choice for a player who's notion of end-game is more smallman focused than raid focused.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DSM, problem with being both a tank and puller in the same group is it slows the group down. Full groups don't tend to like that. Usually a regular group will want a person doing one or the other, but not both. That is not class-specific and applies to anyone.

In a generic full group I'd usually rather have my paladin's toolset than my shadowknight's. Either class does fine in good groups, but the paladin has better capability to cover for mistakes or weaknesses in other folks if things aren't ideal. That being said, this thread was referring to "end game." That's a nebulous term, but realistically on P1999 exceedingly few people are hanging out in full groups at level cap. A few farm teams might, but it's a small portion of the population. Otherwise full groups are mostly for leveling.

At level cap the overwhelming majority of players are either raiding, or doing stuff smallman in solo/duo/trios. Raids have already been discussed at length. Which class is better in a smallman group depends mostly on who the other partners are. Paladin pairs better with enchanter. Shadowknight pairs better with shaman. On balance I prefer the shadowknight's toolset when not in a full or nearly full group. It's a strong class and a good choice for a player who's notion of end-game is more smallman focused than raid focused.

Danth

I disagree. It honestly depends on what you are fighting, your group comp, and how active the group members are in terms of engagement. Having the tank as the puller means you don't need to tear agro away from the puller when they are coming into camp. The agro is already baked in. Once you have broken the spawns, as long as you keep a timer you can just pull singles or doubles while mobs are repoping. And if you want a constant stream of mobs, you can always have a secondary puller. Again, once the mobs are broken and respawns are stringed out you can have anybody in the group do pulling. You could even have an SK tank and a Monk DPS/secondary puller!

If your group is so unfocused that they are consistently missing stuff like heals, I doubt the group will last very long, regardless of whether you bring an SK or a Paladin. A full 6 man group should have enough people paying attention at all times.

Shadowknights can contribute to more important camps like Fungi, whereas a Paladin's toolkit doesn't have a specialty in any group camp as far as I am aware.

Again, I am not saying Paladins are bad or significantly worse. I am simply saying SK's offer something more unique: FD pulling. If your group is a 6 man and doesn't have enough lulls/roots/heals, it's probably a poor composition to begin with, and your efficiency is being drained by that more than by a tank puller.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by mattydef [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Everything a pally brings to a group is apparently disregarded because "another class can do it", but when you point out that another class does what SKs can do but better, they make excuses about how an SK is still somehow more valuable.

To this point specifically, that is not what I am doing at all. You need to realize only 3 classes in the game can FD pull (Monks, SK's, and Necromancers). There are 6 classes that can root and lull (Enchanters, Paladins, Druids, Rangers, Clerics, Necromancers). SK's and Bards can lull, but can't root. There are 6 classes that can heal (Shamans, Clerics, Druids, Rangers, Paladins, Necromancers).

The overlap on a Paladin's abilities is much greater than the overlap on an SK's abilities, which is why your group is much more likely to have a Paladin's spell's covered already. That is the point. You are less likely to have an FD class than a class that can root/lull/heal.

And as I keep saying, if you don't need FD to pull, then I am not sure what a Paladin brings to the table other than being a tank. Any class can just agro mobs and bring them into a camp.

[Troxx]

I always enjoy your posts Danth; insightful and to the point.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I get it, you don't have anything meaningful to add to the conversation.

[mattydef]

It's crazy how different some opinions can be because I have both a paladin and SK and would take my pally in 95% of the situations, the 5% being the rare time where my group is guaranteed wiping and that FD would come in handy, lol.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by mattydef [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's crazy how different some opinions can be because I have both a paladin and SK and would take my pally in 95% of the situations, the 5% being the rare time where my group is guaranteed wiping and that FD would come in handy, lol.

I think the problem is people just get defensive about the characters they like. Paladins and Shadowknights are pretty close in terms of what they bring to the table in a group. So honestly you could go either way if you have both and have a great time in most cases.

The question is not "which one is miles ahead better"? The question is which one has an edge. The answer is Shadowknight simply because they have a more specialized toolkit that is harder to come by, and quite useful.

That doesn't mean Paladins are bad, or groups are dropping Paladins for SK's at an alarming rate. It just means realistically speaking Paladins have a less unique toolkit, and therefore bring a bit less to the table. Now of course you could have a group where you have a lower tier healer, such as a Druid, so Paladin backup heals would be more necessary. But at that point you can't really argue about efficiency, as that group already has inefficient healing.