Forceful Entry wipes to Lord Nagafen with 35 people

[OforOppression]

regarding FE sorry

[falkun]

Originally Posted by Alawen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yours is the informal fallacy of hasty generalization. In some cases, FTE is a deciding factor. However, (1) showing up with an inadequate raid force and having your bluff called makes FTE irrelevant, as demonstrated at Noble Dojorn. (2) Lacking a competent pull team on an outdoor dragon will prevent an opportunity to compete for FTE at all, as demonstrated at Talendor. (3) Being unable to find your way to the raid spot without dying will also preclude a chance for FTE, as demonstrated at Nagafen.

FTE matters. FTE is not the only thing that matters. Stating a claim that only FTE matters compromises your credibility. From my perspective, it looks like you've been drinking BDA Kool-Aid a little too long. The raid rhetoric in that guild is utter nonsense. Tracking the TMO tracker? Really? You honestly believe that's a route to victory?

Your first paragraph completely agrees with me. If you do not get FTE (for whatever reason, (2) bad pull team, (1) not enough members to engage, or (3) not getting to the pull/FTE), you will not get the loot.

You've not brought any new argument to my case about FTE and you've strengthened my argument.

And to Alarti, when I provided the tale of VD's last Trak, there is that bit about TMO basically telling VD to realize who had FTE, and that we were stupid for engaging on your FTE. I agree, VD was. TMO is also stupid for engaging on FE's FTEs, for the very same reason. Is it also completely ludicrous at times because of how close engages by the two guilds are? Absolutely. But there is this pot calling the kettle black phenomenon going on around here, its getting old.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your first paragraph completely agrees with me. If you do not get FTE (for whatever reason, (2) bad pull team, (1) not enough members to engage, or (3) not getting to the pull/FTE), you will not get the loot.

You've not brought any new argument to my case about FTE and you've strengthened my argument.

And to Alarti, when I provided the tale of VD's last Trak, there is that bit about TMO basically telling VD to realize who had FTE, and that we were stupid for engaging on your FTE. I agree, VD was. TMO is also stupid for engaging on FE's FTEs, for the very same reason. Is it also completely ludicrous at times because of how close engages by the two guilds are? Absolutely. But there is this pot calling the kettle black phenomenon going on around here, its getting old.

These are similar but unlike instances. VD was generally well behind on FTE engages. Yet engaged anyways. On those engages the differences were in 10's of seconds not 100th's of seconds. VD could have paid attention and not screwed up. Currently the margin of error is beyond human perception.

[falkun]

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

These are similar but unlike instances. VD was generally well behind on FTE engages. Yet engaged anyways. On those engages the differences were in 10's of seconds not 100th's of seconds. VD could have paid attention and not screwed up. Currently the margin of error is beyond human perception.

Finally a logical point. Do you believe that FTE shout will enable an erroneously engaged guild to better disengage if/when it is implemented?

[Alawen]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your first paragraph completely agrees with me. If you do not get FTE (for whatever reason, (2) bad pull team, (1) not enough members to engage, or (3) not getting to the pull/FTE), you will not get the loot.

You've not brought any new argument to my case about FTE and you've strengthened my argument.

And to Alarti, when I provided the tale of VD's last Trak, there is that bit about TMO basically telling VD to realize who had FTE, and that we were stupid for engaging on your FTE. I agree, VD was. TMO is also stupid for engaging on FE's FTEs, for the very same reason. Is it also completely ludicrous at times because of how close engages by the two guilds are? Absolutely. But there is this pot calling the kettle black phenomenon going on around here, its getting old.

You are now engaged in the informal logical fallacy of equivocation. The three scenarios I described are not identical or even similar. You argue poorly.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Finally a logical point. Do you believe that FTE shout will enable an erroneously engaged guild to better disengage if/when it is implemented?

You make an incorrect analogy, an incorrect statement and then complain about my logic?
I am not sure you are able to recognize logic. There was nothing to debate before you made an incorrect statement. Multiple people explained how it was incorrect. You fell back on a weak defense which was easy to pick apart.

Depending on how FTE is coded is could help an engaged guild backout, it also could abused by fd classes or a quick zerg and die tactic to cause more confusion than there currently is. It would also disable raiding tactics TMO uses, like what was displayed last Noble FE wipe.

IMO FTE shouts are more detrimental to the raid scene then good.

(Again your slavish fascination with FTE shouts furter indicates your lack of understanding of the raid scene)

[falkun]

You don't make an argument. You disagree with mine and then provide evidence agreeing with me. I don't have to argue when you are doing it for me.

What happens if your pull team is incompetent (eg: Talendor)? You don't get FTE and you don't get loot.
What happens if you train your raid/camp before the pull (eg: Nagafen)? You spend precious time either wiping to the train or managing to the train, possibly losing FTE due to preoccupation.
What happens if you don't make it to the raid/camp for the pull (eg: Nagafen)? You don't get FTE because you never pulled the mob.
What happens if your tiny raid force bluff is called (eg: Djorn)? You *may* get FTE, but GMs won't support your claim and will award loot accordingly.

Of those examples you provide, the only time FTE isn't responsible for awarding loot is for a small raid force. But a "too-small" raid force can only be determined by GM intervention, which will already be involved for the FTE dispute.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You don't make an argument. You disagree with mine and then provide evidence agreeing with me. I don't have to argue when you are doing it for me.

What happens if your pull team is incompetent (eg: Talendor)? You don't get FTE and you don't get loot.
What happens if you train your raid/camp before the pull (eg: Nagafen)? You spend precious time either wiping to the train or managing to the train, possibly losing FTE due to preoccupation.
What happens if you don't make it to the raid/camp for the pull (eg: Nagafen)? You don't get FTE because you never pulled the mob.
What happens if your tiny raid force bluff is called (eg: Djorn)? You *may* get FTE, but GMs won't support your claim and will award loot accordingly.

Of those examples you provide, the only time FTE isn't responsible for awarding loot is for a small raid force. But a "too-small" raid force can only be determined by GM intervention, which will already be involved for the FTE dispute.

You are running in a circle please tell me where I am agreeing with you =) Also, what points are you arguing? Stop frothing... take a min and collect your thoughts.

[falkun]

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are running in a circle please tell me where I am agreeing with you =) Also, what points are you arguing? Stop frothing... take a min and collect your thoughts.

You posted between me and Alawen.

And frothing? You give yourself too much credit.

[Alawen]

Thirty is a tiny raid force for a classic mob that was first killed by less than four groups of level 50s? Can you not understand what is happening in this game even when you have fraps to review?

Poor you.