religion

[leewong]

Originally Posted by Patriam1066 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1. this has nothing to do with christianity
2. The slave owners had christ killed. His followers were the poor and the downtrodden... His theology, at the time of his life, would have zero effect on the actions of those who own slaves. You guys don't see religion as history, which is your biggest problem. Christ, as a historical figure, had influence over a very limited number of people. He was preaching to them.

Whatever theology has occurred since then is attributable only to individual theologians, not to the man himself. Religion is a fluid, living thing than reflects cultural changes. One day you'll understand that.
Ignore thousands of years of collective wisdom of your ancestors at your own peril.

1. Um, so Bible passages from the New and Old Testament have nothing to do with Christianity...interesting.
2. So what. The slave owners should not affect what laws Jesus is passing down to human beings anymore than a murderer not following his laws would. If God was truly omnipotent he could write a book in such a way that it is timeless. What you are suggesting is that God writes different rule books for different cultures and that his laws change as time passes.

[Archalen]

I know you didn't explicitly say that they live longer because they are Christian. I just wanted to make sure no readers will commit that fallacy.

[paulgiamatti]

Oh, but my bad, we should all pay attention to what Patriam has to say about Jesus loving those poor slaves because it's thought-provoking. We don't want to hear any of that boring stuff about Jesus preaching immoral iron-age bullshit that has no validity in the 21st century. We want to hear what a great guy he was, because that's exciting!

[Sidelle]

Originally Posted by paulgiamatti [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Oh, but my bad, we should all pay attention to what Patriam has to say about Jesus loving those poor slaves because it's thought-provoking. We don't want to hear any of that boring stuff about Jesus preaching immoral iron-age bullshit that has no validity in the 21st century. We want to hear what a great guy he was, because that's exciting!

I'm sorry you took my post personally, though I don't recall using your name specifically, nor did I quote anything you've said... So what's got you all rustled? Do you think I was talking about you for some odd reason? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[paulgiamatti]

And w/r/t China, I mean look, I'm not saying Christians cannot or do not fight for just causes or perform moral actions. I'm simply saying that faith is not a requirement to do so, and it doesn't need to be taught to children in schools. Upholding a moral society is everyone's responsibility, not just religion's.

[Patriam1066]

Originally Posted by paulgiamatti [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And w/r/t China, I mean look, I'm not saying Christians cannot or do not fight for just causes or perform moral actions. I'm simply saying that faith is not a requirement to do so, and it doesn't need to be taught to children in schools. Upholding a moral society is everyone's responsibility, not just religion's.

I'm not sure why we're arguing then. I don't disagree with this. I'm just telling you that when you say "we're better off without religion," that you couldn't possibly be more wrong. There are so many assumptions there, like 1) religion hasn't helped us
2) religion doesn't continue to help us
3) that good / bad are solely the domain of people's religious convictions.

There is so much going on in the world that happens completely independent of religion, and if it were abolished, would continue to happen.

If you were to ask me though, from my limited travelings on this planet, I would say that Christians are without a doubt the most moral group. I would say Buddhists are a close second. That's just my opinion. I don't think attacking them accomplishes anything except demonstrate the ignorance of those vilifying people they don't understand.

I said this earlier in this thread. There is a reason that Denmark, Sweden, the Netherlands, NZ, Australia, Canada, UK, US, Finland, Estonia . . . .etc, are all overwhelmingly successful. Even if these places are post-Christian, you cannot separate their common Protestant heritage from why they are successful today.

Religion isn't pointless. It never has been. It's responsible for things that you probably take for granted. The Enlightenment, the secular movement that probably had more to do with Europe's current culture than anything other than the World Wars, doesn't happen without the Protestant Reformation.

Also, the first universities on this planet were Islamic. I could google Islamic polymaths and tell you what they did, but I'll let you do that yourself.

Religion is timeless. It has always been important. It will always remain important. And even if Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism are eliminated, rest assured, people will follow something different. It's my profound hope, that if these things are replaced, they are replaced with something better. I honestly don't think that they would be. Good luck finding better teachers than Jesus or Buddha.

Saadi Shirazi, a devout Persian Sunni:


Adam's sons are body limbs, to say;
For they're created of the same clay.
Should one organ be troubled by pain,
Others would suffer severe strain.
Thou, careless of people's suffering,
Deserve not the name, "human being".

Much better in Persian

http://vimeo.com/53253260

go to 33:00 minutes in and listen to about 37:00

[Patriam1066]

I am not saying that one is only moral if they believe in God. I don't think being an atheist precludes you from having a sense of morality, or even from getting into heaven if there is one. I also think that being religious doesn't preclude you from being intelligent, thoughtful, and a contributing member of society.

[Glenzig]

Originally Posted by Patriam1066 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not sure why we're arguing then. I don't disagree with this. I'm just telling you that when you say "we're better off without religion," that you couldn't possibly be more wrong. There are so many assumptions there, like 1) religion hasn't helped us
2) religion doesn't continue to help us
3) that good / bad are solely the domain of people's religious convictions.

There is so much going on in the world that happens completely independent of religion, and if it were abolished, would continue to happen.

If you were to ask me though, from my limited travelings on this planet, I would say that Christians are without a doubt the most moral group. I would say Buddhists are a close second. That's just my opinion. I don't think attacking them accomplishes anything except demonstrate the ignorance of those vilifying people they don't understand.

I said this earlier in this thread. There is a reason that Denmark, Sweden, the Netherlands, NZ, Australia, Canada, UK, US, Finland, Estonia . . . .etc, are all overwhelmingly successful. Even if these places are post-Christian, you cannot separate their common Protestant heritage from why they are successful today.

Religion isn't pointless. It never has been. It's responsible for things that you probably take for granted. The Enlightenment, the secular movement that probably had more to do with Europe's current culture than anything other than the World Wars, doesn't happen without the Protestant Reformation.

Also, the first universities on this planet were Islamic. I could google Islamic polymaths and tell you what they did, but I'll let you do that yourself.

Religion is timeless. It has always been important. It will always remain important. And even if Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism are eliminated, rest assured, people will follow something different. It's my profound hope, that if these things are replaced, they are replaced with something better. I honestly don't think that they would be. Good luck finding better teachers than Jesus or Buddha.

Saadi Shirazi, a devout Persian Sunni:


Adam's sons are body limbs, to say;
For they're created of the same clay.
Should one organ be troubled by pain,
Others would suffer severe strain.
Thou, careless of people's suffering,
Deserve not the name, "human being".

Much better in Persian

http://vimeo.com/53253260

go to 33:00 minutes in and listen to about 37:00

I'm pretty sure it just comes down to people like PaulG not wanting anyone anywhere telling them what is or isn't moral. All the while not realizing that he is doi g the exact same thing.
You're absolutely right though, the removal of organized religion would hardly mean the end of religion itself. And if you think that religion based on centuries old holy books is immoral, you'll be very disappointed in the replacement.

[KagatobLuvsAnimu]

Can one of you P people please get a fucking avitar? I can't figure out who is saying what!

[Patriam1066]

Originally Posted by Glenzig [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm pretty sure it just comes down to people like PaulG not wanting anyone anywhere telling them what is or isn't moral. All the while not realizing that he is doi g the exact same thing.
You're absolutely right though, the removal of organized religion would hardly mean the end of religion itself. And if you think that religion based on centuries old holy books is immoral, you'll be very disappointed in the replacement.

Yeah. At least this is how I see it. I'm glad that j make sense to one other person on this server.