First Aggro + 15

[girth]

Originally Posted by astarothel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Fun fact. You can't camp for more than 100% of the time you play.

See how +/- 48 hours would exceed 100% and therefore be impossible? Apparently not.

Originally Posted by girth

By your same math, wouldn't the current situation of like 90+ hours variance mean we camp more than 100% of the week?

Pretty sure I understand that and that's why I called out your terrible mathematical debunking of OP's solution.

Originally Posted by astarothel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Remind me again of how anything you "pull out of your ass" is productive to the conversation?

You could always just learn to read and go back and try to understand the main point of my post that got you started on math. You think the act of camping itself is the problem, even though the only other way to do it basically is a rotation, which is way worse.

Like I said on that post that you ignored and went on a tirade about math making this a bad proposal, the problem is the amount of camping needed currently, +/- 48 or whatever it is at the moment is beyond stupid. Obviously you should realize at this point you cannot deter the camping guilds from going the extra mile to get their raid bosses, so to think that making the spawn variance longer will do so is just well...stupid.

Even if you don't accept this proposal, shorten the variance which was put in because of time zone differences unless I'm mistaken, even though +/- 12 would just as easily do the same thing. So would +/- 6.

I'm not sure you are in the raiding scene atm Asta, and I just got into it myself, but I can tell you that camping most likely will not change due to supply and demand. What needs to change is the amount of camping that the absurd spawn variances force us to do. Lower spawn variances and removal of the first to 15 in a zone will help tremendously to alleviate this. Those 2 reasons and the no rotation thing is why this is the best proposal.

[astarothel]

Originally Posted by girth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

By your same math, wouldn't the current situation of like 90+ hours variance mean we camp more than 100% of the week?

The math presupposes that you have a maximum of 168 hours available in the week. Why? Because unless you have a wonderful way to dilate time that's how it works. Any value beyond the 100% is irrelevant because it doesn't exist. Any comparison then will have to be drawn to this 100% value, rather than your amazing week with time dilation.

Originally Posted by girth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You think the act of camping itself is the problem, even though the only other way to do it basically is a rotation, which is way worse.

Subjective argument, although people including myself would agree that a simple straight rotation as a solution is probably not desirable.

Originally Posted by girth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Obviously you should realize at this point you cannot deter the camping guilds from going the extra mile to get their raid bosses, so to think that making the spawn variance longer will do so is just well...stupid.

Please find exactly where I said making the spawn variance longer would fix anything. Note: It's going to be tough because I never said it anywhere.

Originally Posted by girth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Even if you don't accept this proposal, shorten the variance which was put in because of time zone differences unless I'm mistaken, even though +/- 12 would just as easily do the same thing. So would +/- 6.

Nowhere did I state that I was against lowering the variance, simply that doing so would not put an end to camping, rather it would change the nature of camping. (15 people constantly camping with some afks in there vs entire raid groups at the shorter +/- variance window that will also have those same afks)

Originally Posted by girth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

camping most likely will not change due to supply and demand.

The only way to end camping is to have it offer no absolute advantage when it comes to the determination of who gets the target. Since this would require either a straight rotation or a dynamic rotation like SK, and the raiding populace seems intent on curbstomping any sort of solution or compromise I think it's fair to say it will never end.

Originally Posted by girth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What needs to change is the amount of camping that the absurd spawn variances force us to do. Lower spawn variances

Opinions on switching to a flat +variance rather than a +/-?
What this means is I think a +0 to 12 would be better than a +/-6.
This would ensure it still moves around the clock to accommodate all time zones, where shorter +/- variance might not be as dynamic.

I definitely would like to see CT repop fear. I think that'd cut back some on PoF camping while making breaks more frequent.

The pathing trash in PoH isn't really an issue to either campers or a tracker since a trash clear will remedy it and then you just have to watch the clock and make sure people are there to clear respawns. I can't remember if Inno repops Hate or not (leaning towards him not), or if this would even be a reasonable solution to implement even if he didn't.

Originally Posted by girth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Those 2 reasons and the no rotation thing is why I think this is the best proposal.

Fixed to represent subjectivity.

Interested in hearing peoples' comments on possible planes changes and flat +var.

[girth]

Fair enough. I like your last post Asta.

Originally Posted by girth

Obviously you should realize at this point you cannot deter the camping guilds from going the extra mile to get their raid bosses, so to think that making the spawn variance longer will do so is just well...stupid.

Yeah this wasn't directed at you, I kinda started ranting there. At that point in the post it was more of an understood you, and there are plenty of people who stated they think that to eliminate camping we should lengthen the variance, which frustrates and infuriates me because it is such an ignorant opinion.

Opinions on switching to a flat +variance rather than a +/-?

I like a flat +6 sure. In fact, I think most raiding guilds would prefer to know exactly when something is coming up. Not to mention its more classic.

What I wonder is would you guys consider showing up 30 minutes to an hour before the boss is due camping or not? If so, then you will never see an end to camping until there is more content. There is no way to prevent these guilds from being there when they think/know a boss is gonna spawn. The ONLY way is a rotation, and I can guarantee you, it won't happen - just takes 1 guild/raid to ignore it and it's over.

Because of that, I believe the only way to move forward is to make a solution that incorporates the fact that guilds WILL be waiting for these bosses to pop, but doesn't give the first force there priority.

[atvaata]

maybe people shouldnt just be retarded and we wouldnt have these problems [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[astarothel]

Think I would prefer a variance to flat still for this specific proposal, if only because everyone and their mom showing up 30 before would be a logistical nightmare for finding out who hit it first, people not in that raid clearing the zone, abacab trains, etc. I think some variance would help a little in keeping a higher volume of players that aren't exactly friendly separated from one another. Know when it is exactly and you have 50+ IB, 50+ DA, whatever Divinity and Remedy toss in there, and an Abacab to wreak havoc for good measure. That kettle has a high potential to boil over into ugly quick with first to engage, people getting bored, potential zone crashes, magical "mysterious" zone crashes, etc.

30 minutes early isn't a big deal to me -- it's not camping, it's more like zoning in and going to grab a snack or beer.

What I meant by a flat positive variance was a positive only variance, so the spawn time is always cycling forward, rather than having the potential to seesaw back and forth a +/- variance would have.

The only valid solution for guilds waiting for the boss to pop without using first in force will rely on some form of this: finding some way to decide who goes first, without making it a necessitated GM overseen clusterfuck.

As of right now the only three ways I can see to decide that sort of thing.

1) /randoming with groups present, or

2) some sort of rotation or changing it up based upon who's present at the target
i) negotiation [passing on later targets, trading in an individual that needs a drop from the target and presenting a fair chance for them to get it],
ii) can't get two in a row [why show up then ffs... not a fan],
iii) something with a dynamic rotation like SK, or

3) deciding who would get it ahead of time somehow (obvious example not many people would probably like to see -- a straight rotation. Ewwwww)

Originally Posted by atvaata [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

maybe people shouldnt just be retarded and we wouldnt have these problems [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

http://badanalysis.blogspot.com/2006...ke-stupid.html

[Chicka]

I have the final and indisputable solution to all this: put the boss mobs on a +/- 50 year variance and simulate patch day/server down repops.

Sprinkle in first to engage.

Done.

Classic style.

[Deric]

I'm still hoping for some auto-response from the mob indicating who had first aggro. It would eliminate any conjecture and there is a random nature to it. Such a spawn could be tweaked to delay interactions even.. Its hard to say what is within the ability to program such a thing without developers' input.

Honestly, unless the variance is changed from ~1-30 days or some sort of silliness, the dragons/gods will be continued to be camped in one form or another. That is just how it is in MMO's that do not have instanced features.

[Lazortag]

I don't know if this has been suggested, but why not put some of the dragons/gods on an overlapping timer so that no guild could possibly camp all of them at once?

[MrSquirrelbane]

Originally Posted by Lazortag [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't know if this has been suggested, but why not put some of the dragons/gods on an overlapping timer so that no guild could possibly camp all of them at once?

Server gets more and more level 50s every day. Therefore the top two guilds on the server get more apps every day. Its conceivable (but not ideal) that either DA/IB could recruit enough to run more than one full raid force at a time. *shudder* At the thought of having a guild that size hit a single target. The internet as a whole is in better shape these days and might be able to handle it. I wonder if EQ's netcode could?

Fuck megazerg guilds though. Used to have a guild on Solusek Ro that would hit Velious targets with 100+ people. More often than not they'd lag themselves out and wipe, but they still tried.

[guineapig]

Originally Posted by Lazortag [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't know if this has been suggested, but why not put some of the dragons/gods on an overlapping timer so that no guild could possibly camp all of them at once?

Well spawning them all at once would solve this.

Even if the camping guilds over-recruited to compensate you would see many more wipes due to only having 15 in zone versus the 30-50 man zergs that go on now. Also you would see more disgruntled members leaving if this were to happen.

It's one thing that keeps getting overlooked and has been mentioned many times before. Every week or two all raid bosses should be spawning at the same time, just like they did on live. THAT IS CLASSIC!

I can pretty much guarantee you that no guild would be able to kill all 6 raid bosses simultaneously. They will have to pick 1, maybe 2 targets tops. But since other guilds would also be there they would not be able to spread themselves too thin for fear of a wipe which would mean they would loose their shot.

I'm not going to say the phrase that I've been beating to death in the past but you know what I'm getting at. Just respawn the damn raid bosses at once. The way it's always been on live.