ATTN: All Raiding Guilds

[bktroost]

Originally Posted by Pint [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I dont think I'm buying that csg wont do tormax bc they think the training is wrong, I think the reality is that you dont trust your people to be able to control or contain the chaos that comes with these high intensity situations. If we were race clearing to tormax instead of train pulling then you would be in the same situation where you dont fully trust your pull team not to train yourselves or your opponents while trying to speed clear and split to tormax. If you've got enough competent people then these strategies are not as unwieldy as people make them out to be, consider the number of targets killed over the past few months to the number of raid suspensions given out.

You are incorrect. Can we not afford locket of escapes? Can we not bring 100 people to a batphone? 80% of them being level 60? Arn't 2/3rds of the CSG leadership monk mains? No, ability is not the concern. It's entirely about the environment of the server.

We will show up to CT and play with the big boys on CT at 4am est or whatever this week was because THAT is some fun competition right there. Good clean fun where no one gets hurt and I got no problem losing to the faster aoe team and the better raid force. But training Kael or ToV with mobs and wiping literally all life in a pursuit for my personal pixels is not how i see the raid rules. To us, that's an exclusive format at best and an environment built on raid infractions at worst.

Let's not distract ourselves with conversation of ability. It has no part in this discussion.

[Sirken]

Just a small update.

For the voice chat I'm leaning towards discord, please have that installed on your computer if you are planning to attend. You can download it for free here: https://discordapp.com/download


Regarding Variance; we have no plans, intentions, or desire to adjust the current Variance. It use to be a much larger window, and currently we feel it's in a nice middle ground between what Variance use to be and not having Variance at all. So love it or hate it, it's not worth discussing in this thread.

Regarding Earthquakes/Sim Repops: Literally everyone agrees that 3-5 repops a month would be ideal and work wonders across the board for everyone. I've never seen a player say more repops would be a bad idea. so again this topic is not worth discussing in this thread.


You pals should focus on problems within the raid scene. Things like training, griefing, rules that no longer apply and need to be changed, how to change those rules, revamping the concession system in a 3+ guild system, other ways incidents can be worked out between guilds when its more than just two guilds, how to avoid petitioning every encounter, and things within that realm, etc. Those are the types of things you should all be discussing here, with a focus on ToV and Kael (as those seem to be the biggest problem zones).


Another thing ive been hearing and getting messages about is who all will be here for this meeting. I'm looking for guild leaders of actual raiding guilds. The reason for this is that while i'd love to invite literally every guild leader on the server, the fact of the matter is that we've already seen in the past that things get increasingly harder with every extra person you add. I simply do not feel it's necessary to include everyone just so no one feels left out, or not special. you are all very special unique snowflakes. i just firmly believe it would be best to limit attendance to the Guild Leaders of the guilds that are currently dealing with the shit storm, as they are the ones most familiar with the issues and would have the best insight on those issues.

i hope this helped clear some things up, and i am very much looking forward to talking with you all tomorrow.

<3
Sirken

[Pint]

Damn that is soul crushing but also extremely helpful. Two of the biggest issues currently due to kunark era rules are the rules around a stall and a kite. They need to be looked at very closely which is probably going to be a difficult conversation since only 2 of the guilds have a significant deal of experience with the intricacies of stalling and kiting as it relates to tov and Kael = \

[Pan]

Pint, I can see how you'd come to that conclusion. But you cannot read my mind so I object to you mapping that onto me. This probably isn't the right place for this, but maybe it is. Because our perspective counts, too, when it comes to discussing the rules. What follows is a portion of a post that I made to our guild forums on 8 Feb 2016 called: PSA - a word on target selection and being Omni:

I’ve heard there are some questions about why we select the targets that we do.

I need to make a few things clear right up front. There are some raid rules for this server. They live here: (links provided)

And even though they do not get enforced regularly or consistently we follow them. Even tho the punishments are seldom enough to serve as a deterrent, we follow them.

The reason we follow them is because we’re guests here. If I come into your house and you ask me not to drink all of your beer and not to kick your dog, I don’t. Because it’s your house and I’m a guest. So, too, is it on the server with the server’s rules.

That means several things to us. First, it limits our target selection. Many of you saw the trains that we ate on King Tormax. On this server, King Tormax is pulled to the zone – with his friends flopped off somewhere. Not necessarily onto people, but without any regard to the backwash pathing through the zone. (more raid rules quoted)

That means given the way that the rules are enforced now, guilds who are willing to break those rules kill KT instantly. They don’t clear to him. So, too, is it in NToV. You must necessarily cheat to kill those mobs.

What that means for us, in this moment, is KT and NToV mobs (and to a degree, VP mobs) are off the table for us if we choose to follow the rules. And we have a (nearly) two year history of that. I won’t lead a guild that kicks the dog and drinks all of the beer. That’s not what Omni has been, nor will it be.

But that necessarily limits our target selections. So we make the best decisions we can within the rules.

This was met with broad approval by my guildmates. And within CSG, too. And that IS the reason that KT is off the table for us for now (except on repops).

But Pint, your reply speaks volumes regarding the raid scene on the server. The very fact that you cannot imagine someone doing something out of principle, thereby needing to map another (baser) motivation onto it is very telling.

But you've got NO business trying to divine intentions. You're dead wrong on this one.

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by Sirken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just a small update.

For the voice chat I'm leaning towards discord, please have that installed on your computer if you are planning to attend. You can download it for free here: https://discordapp.com/download


Regarding Variance; we have no plans, intentions, or desire to adjust the current Variance. It use to be a much larger window, and currently we feel it's in a nice middle ground between what Variance use to be and not having Variance at all. So love it or hate it, it's not worth discussing in this thread.

Regarding Earthquakes/Sim Repops: Literally everyone agrees that 3-5 repops a month would be ideal and work wonders across the board for everyone. I've never seen a player say more repops would be a bad idea. so again this topic is not worth discussing in this thread.


You pals should focus on problems within the raid scene. Things like training, griefing, rules that no longer apply and need to be changed, how to change those rules, revamping the concession system in a 3+ guild system, other ways incidents can be worked out between guilds when its more than just two guilds, how to avoid petitioning every encounter, and things within that realm, etc. Those are the types of things you should all be discussing here, with a focus on ToV and Kael (as those seem to be the biggest problem zones).


Another thing ive been hearing and getting messages about is who all will be here for this meeting. I'm looking for guild leaders of actual raiding guilds. The reason for this is that while i'd love to invite literally every guild leader on the server, the fact of the matter is that we've already seen in the past that things get increasingly harder with every extra person you add. I simply do not feel it's necessary to include everyone just so no one feels left out, or not special. you are all very special unique snowflakes. i just firmly believe it would be best to limit attendance to the Guild Leaders of the guilds that are currently dealing with the shit storm, as they are the ones most familiar with the issues and would have the best insight on those issues.

i hope this helped clear some things up, and i am very much looking forward to talking with you all tomorrow.

<3
Sirken

Taking the discussion of Variance Reduction and Increased Sim Repops off the table removes the absolute most important / viable solutions to resolving a huge number of issues we have with our raid scene here Sirken. Are these really things that Rogean will not touch? As you said, everyone agrees it would be a good thing.

--I realize its not a topic for tomorrows summit, but can you push Rogean to give you the capability or automate sim repops, as it would make your (and every raid guild on this server's) life far easier.

As Chest stated earlier, any other rule changes will simply be bandaids onto a festering wound.

We can surely talk about revamping some rules to be brought up to date, but that will not reduce the number of petitions, trains, or the concession scene much at all. Those are all issues that arise out of too many top-end guilds and not enough content being up simultaneously forcing them to spread out.

[arsenalpow]

Div/Anon should send a singular rep, as should CSG. I don't need to hear a position 3 separate times from CSG nor do I want to hear all 3 of you agreeing with each other after every point you make.

[Culkasi]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Div/Anon should send a singular rep, as should CSG. I don't need to hear a position 3 separate times from CSG nor do I want to hear all 3 of you agreeing with each other after every point you make.

We are 3 individual raid guilds and of course Cloki, Nemce and I will all participate. I cannot speak for Divinity and Anonymous.

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by Culkasi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We are 3 individual raid guilds and of course Cloki, Nemce and I will all participate. I cannot speak for Divinity and Anonymous.

You refer to yourselves as the raiding alliance CSG, you aren't 3 separate guilds when it comes to actual contested raiding. CSG kills Klandicars and Cekenars or whatever. Europa has a skyday, but so does infernus and blackheart pirates and you don't see them with a seat at this table.

Everyone else gets one rep, so should your raiding entity. I don't want an echo.

[Culkasi]

We are individual guilds who make individual decisions. Just like you didn't get to dictate who was a guild in Class R, you don't get to dictate it now. Be less worried about echoes and more worried about what to discuss tomorrow.

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by Culkasi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We are individual guilds who make individual decisions. Just like you didn't get to dictate who was a guild in Class R, you don't get to dictate it now. Be less worried about echoes and more worried about what to discuss tomorrow.

Based on my posts in this thread it would seem that I have a solid grasp of the raiding issues on this server, I also understand when Sirken says one rep he means one rep.