Best Server Community Sin--Wait, Nevermind

[Darian]

Originally Posted by soup [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Usually when people resort to using excessively exaggerated extremes to defend their position, it's the same thing as saying "I know things look and sound really bad, but I don't want to admit it."

Excessively exaggerated? The only things I changed from the OP's story were the mob in question and the bind point, the latter of which (as you've just told us) shouldn't matter.

Originally Posted by soup

@ your ninja edit
I'm not sure where you read that in what I posted. All I said is that the rules don't dictate what is or isn't a dick thing to do. Anyone who thinks the rules DO dictate what is or isn't a dick thing to do is either an asshole or a simpleton. Often a combination of both.

I agree with you there. Where we disagree is that I happen to think when a camper dies, comes back, finds camp taken, then argues he should be given unlimited chances and deaths to kill the mob without anyone else having a chance (even if he's in over his head)... well, I think that guy is the bigger dick than the folks who took the camp in his absence. The fact that my position lines up better with server rules doesn't mean the rules dictate my morality.

If it had been me camping and I'd died, I wouldn't begrudge people for taking the camp. I expect the best from my guildmates (there's that community thing you're talking about), but I just don't think they're in the wrong here.

oh and inb4 RnF switch

[DetroitVelvetSmooth]

When a person is camping a spawn alone and dies, it is proof that they don't deserve tha spawn. Unless they were trained, take that shit. No mercy for farmers.

[Acillatem]

It sux - we've all been there. But I don't consider it a douchebag thing to do. I would never be pissed off at someone that took a camp from me while I was on a corpse run. I'd be more pissed at myself for LOSING the camp in the first place.

The AC is a heavily disputed camp....I know people who spend weeks trying to get on a list for it. It's unfortunate the person died - but hey - if I'd been trying to find an open AC for almost a month....and I happen upon the SRo AC being open.....I'm sorry to say if you WERE there and died - it's mine now. I'll be damned if I'm going to spend another month till I can find it open again.

My time is more important than your happiness. That doesn't make me a douchebag. That makes me someone who works 60-70 hours a week, only plays on weekends, and wants to maximize my playtime.

I don't charge for ports. I'm alwayz unanon so if someone needs a lift all they hafta do is ask. I spend a lot of time helping other wizards in the community out.

I volunteer enough of my time helping others that when a gem like an Ancient Cyclops falls in my lap - I'm taking advantage of a lucky break.

And honestly - I think anyone who EXPECTS me to do something detrimental to my character's advancement becuz they fuking died is a douchebag.

[soup]

Originally Posted by Darian [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Excessively exaggerated? The only things I changed from the OP's story were the mob in question and the bind point, the latter of which (as you've just told us) shouldn't matter.



I agree with you there. Where we disagree is that I happen to think when a camper dies, comes back, finds camp taken, then argues he should be given unlimited chances and deaths to kill the mob without anyone else having a chance (even if he's in over his head)... well, I think that guy is the bigger dick than the folks who took the camp in his absence. The fact that my position lines up better with server rules doesn't mean the rules dictate my morality.

If it had been me camping and I'd died, I wouldn't begrudge people for taking the camp. I expect the best from my guildmates (there's that community thing you're talking about), but I just don't think they're in the wrong here.

oh and inb4 RnF switch

It just really irks me how often people are happy to tell each other to "fuck off, look at the rules". I mean, honestly, the gameplay in this game isn't exactly the most exciting thing ever. What is great though is how much of an influence players can have on each other, both good and bad. I know that going out and buffing noobs on my druid can make SOOOO much more impact than it can in basically any other game, and that's actually why I'm leveling a druid right now (again actually, since my previous account got compromised due to not being cautious enough.) Strictly because I want to go out and offer those useful buffs. Do I expect other people to do the same? Not at all, but it sure does irk me when people are soooo much more than happy to tell someone else to fuck off, look at the rules.

A good example of something I saw recently that I found quite disheartening was when I was in Lguk (on my 50 necro) going around looking for nameds to kill and shit, I took a peek at Lord and saw he was up with a Yak and saw a necro with crappy gear nearby. I asked the necro if they were killing the Lord to which they said yes. I had very little experience with Lord so I decided to sit by and see how they went about killing the Lord as well as to lend a hand if they got in a bad spot. After sitting there for about 5-10 minutes, they asked me "Are you going to just sit there and hope I fail, or....?" and at first I found it somewhat offensive, shit, I'm just wanting to watch and maybe lend a hand, and you're going to ask if I'm trying to jack you? But I realized I can't really blame them since if they did die the rules would allow me to take the mob and Yak and I'm sure they've probably ran into plenty of people who would love nothing other to do that (and hell, had probably ran into people who had done exactly that.)

The necro example is a pretty good one in this example since after talking to them for awhile I found they had been trying to kill him a couple times now and kept getting close and died a couple times, so according to what some people say "He's in over his head, he doesn't deserve the mob!" but on the attempt where I was watching they managed to kill the Lord with absolutely no problem whatsoever. Had they died and I killed the mob and took the Yak, the rules certainly would have allowed that, AND I do not think the rules should state otherwise, but, with that said, I do think I would have been a 100% grade A douche bag to take it.

[Mini14]

I was there that day, and what happened sucks- but I've learned over the years you can't change the way people act... The best you can do is try to watch out for these kinds of people. Regardless of who was right and who was wrong, I got my shit-list and i'm checking it twice [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Phragmar]

I said that was my last post barring replies to attacks or questions, and I meant it, so I'll hit the broad strokes and be as brief as I can.

1. I clarified that I played before to distinguish between the fact that I'm new to the server, not the game, since some of the earlier responses seemed ambiguous on the point.

2. I have an opinion. Sorry if this comes as a surprise. Sometimes I talk about it on the internet and elsewhere. My condolences for you if you don't have an opinion or don't talk about it. You might be sad to discover that I have opinions on other things too, and as it turns out, at least one person agrees with my opinion on this issue. Go figure.

3. Speaking passionately about ethics /= mental instability. I'm not entertained by ad hominems. Also, if you're looking to troll or insult, I'd try for something other than "white knight." I'm sorry, but I just can't bring myself to find it pejorative.

4. Being nice to people is not a huge revolution in thought, even on the internet. A lot of these arguments can be distilled to. "It is okay to be cruel to someone if the rule/law supports it," or perhaps implicitly (and bleakly), "It is okay to be cruel to someone if there are no real world consequences for it." If the former is your view of the world, that's fine (although I would defy you to articulate a rational basis for it, and I think it's patently immoral--yes, my opinion strikes again), and if you hold to the latter, I would suggest that I think it's time for gamers as a subculture to arrive at the place where everyone understands that there is no acceptable justification for having a separate standard for treating people in a game as compared to the real world. Maybe that makes me idealistic, but I'm willing to be idealistic.

5. I'm sorry if this comes as a disappointment--after all, I realize that apparently I come across a little high-handed--but just like everyone's parents, teachers, religious or political authority figures, gurus, pundits, or talking heads, I am not able to articulate for you a uniform, absolute standard for ethics that you can apply in every situation. You have to work that out for yourself. There are a million hypotheticals anyone could posit that are factually similar to the incident I witnessed where either side could be in the wrong for a host of different reasons. There is no hard and fast rule when it comes to human decency. There is a rule for camping on this server, but I don't have to have been here for years to know that one can observe the letter of it while utterly subverting the spirit of it, in more ways than one. EDIT (preemptively): I would also remind you that the rules for server interaction serve more purposes than one, some of which are articulated, and some of which aren't. One of them, however, is to create a line of staff fiat that prevents these disputes from being litigated in whatever dispute-resolution process the server might waste its time implementing, in an effort to cut down on the need for superfluous manpower.

[Rilen]

Yay.

I don't care to read this shit storm so I'm just going to post details.

I camped AC from 5:20ish am, to whenever I died somewhere around 1:30am maybe?

Died to a white SG that was the 30 minute PH for AC. I shouldn't have died but after over 15 hours at the camp I was getting a bit lazy. The druid that nearly saved me said that I killed it, so my DoT must've magically taken him down.

After this I paid said Druid 150pp to pick me up from LFay, and was back in less than 10 minutes to find the VD members rolled into my camp and try to inform me that they had killed the PH's so it's their camp now. Whatever, I tried to ask them to be nice, be decent, and got rules cited on me.

Quite frankly, I didn't expect anything different, I don't expect anyone to care. In fact, I don't really care.

Douchebags will continue to be douchebags. It should come as no surprise that a congregation of them forms in a mass invite guild.

[Odeseus]

So you are familiar with the opinion concept. Everyone has one, whether they express it or not. What I wonder is why do you continue to express it as if yours was the only one that matters? There have been pros and cons posted here as to why you were upset about this particular event. You fall on one side, others fall on the other. Why get upset that many disagree with you?

And, sorry, but of course someone will agree with your opinion. Hitler had an opinion that Aryans were the superior race. Many people agreed with him. Doesn't make him right. Or as another example, I think LeBron James is a dick. Many people disagree with me. Doesn't make me right or wrong. Tis the nature of opinions.

As for being idealistic. You have every right to be idealistic and I encourage it. But just be aware that you will ALWAYS run into things that fall well short of your ideal. Tis the nature of the world unfortunately. Sorry to disappoint you. But be prepared for this, and don't freak out when we (as fallen creatures) cannot live up to your ideal. We're human, and as you mentioned before, we are evil by nature. So why does it surprise you when we act according to our nature?

As for being nice, you simply cannot be nice all the time to everyone. A good example is my first few jobs that I held in RL. I was always the first one to be called in if someone called in sick or just didn't show up simply because everyone knew I was nice enough to come in. So I spent WAY more time at work than I should have, and eventually figured out that I was being used.

Or as another example, a couple of ex-girlfriends who used my generosity to string me along and buy shit for them. It is simply my nature to be nice, but they abused that. The same logic applies here. If I am nice 100% of the time, I will be used. I have been scammed a few times here because I was too trusting of random people. There are advantages to being nice but there are also some disadvantages as well that you ignore.

And finally, YES, we all have to figure out for ourselves what is right and wrong. Not everything is spelled out. So why is your version of what is right and wrong the only one that matters? How are you somehow the perfect moral being while the rest of us scum down below are not?

Just some thoughts, hope you can find the time to address them.

[soup]

Originally Posted by Odeseus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So you are familiar with the opinion concept. Everyone has one, whether they express it or not. What I wonder is why do you continue to express it as if yours was the only one that matters? There have been pros and cons posted here as to why you were upset about this particular event. You fall on one side, others fall on the other. Why get upset that many disagree with you?

And, sorry, but of course someone will agree with your opinion. Hitler had an opinion that Aryans were the superior race. Many people agreed with him. Doesn't make him right. Or as another example, I think LeBron James is a dick. Many people disagree with me. Doesn't make me right or wrong. Tis the nature of opinions.

As for being idealistic. You have every right to be idealistic and I encourage it. But just be aware that you will ALWAYS run into things that fall well short of your ideal. Tis the nature of the world unfortunately. Sorry to disappoint you. But be prepared for this, and don't freak out when we (as fallen creatures) cannot live up to your ideal. We're human, and as you mentioned before, we are evil by nature. So why does it surprise you when we act according to our nature?

As for being nice, you simply cannot be nice all the time to everyone. A good example is my first few jobs that I held in RL. I was always the first one to be called in if someone called in sick or just didn't show up simply because everyone knew I was nice enough to come in. So I spent WAY more time at work than I should have, and eventually figured out that I was being used.

Or as another example, a couple of ex-girlfriends who used my generosity to string me along and buy shit for them. It is simply my nature to be nice, but they abused that. The same logic applies here. If I am nice 100% of the time, I will be used. I have been scammed a few times here because I was too trusting of random people. There are advantages to being nice but there are also some disadvantages as well that you ignore.

And finally, YES, we all have to figure out for ourselves what is right and wrong. Not everything is spelled out. So why is your version of what is right and wrong the only one that matters? How are you somehow the perfect moral being while the rest of us scum down below are not?

Just some thoughts, hope you can find the time to address them.

A lot of this is basically summarized as "I used to let people walk all over me, therefore I now have no problem with people just taking anything the rules allow them to take."

Hey, maybe a lot of people think that since the rules allow it then it's an okay and not dick thing to do. That's their right, but there's also a lot of us who think it's a complete asshole thing to do, and will make sure to not have anything to do with people who are like that.

[Phragmar]

Originally Posted by Odeseus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

... Hitler ...

Originally Posted by Odeseus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just some thoughts, hope you can find the time to address them.

Nope.