Why are most of the artists in the USA democrats?

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If, hypothetically, the following was true:

A) there is in fact an incredibly pervasive and deep-rooted set of pattern matching algorithms in our brain, left over from a time long ago in our evolution

B) these "algorithms" are responsible for institutional racist thinking (to put it another way, seeing a person of ___ color on TV doing ____ does convince your brain that in general people of ____ color do ____, because those pattern matching bits aren't sophisticated enough to tell what's on TV apart ... because they evolved long before TV existed)

C) that a person's thinking can be changed by changing the pattern inputs

what kind of proof would convince you of it?

If this is the case, why do we see most racism in areas of greatest exposure?

Why do good behaviors of ordinary people not effect this change?

[Lhancelot]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If this is the case, why do we see most racism in areas of greatest exposure?

Why do good behaviors of ordinary people not effect this change?

Exactly. ^

If TV changed the minds and hearts of people, then why do some blacks distrust and hate whites? Look how many whites are shown on TV as wonderful human beings!

[AzzarTheGod]

Originally Posted by Lhancelot [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Exactly. ^

If TV changed the minds and hearts of people, then why do some blacks distrust and hate whites? Look how many whites are shown on TV as wonderful human beings!

mmmm not quite

always in pos of power or well-off =/= wonderful human being


720

[Lhancelot]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If, hypothetically, the following was true:

A) there is in fact an incredibly pervasive and deep-rooted set of pattern matching algorithms in our brain, left over from a time long ago in our evolution

B) these "algorithms" are responsible for institutional racist thinking (to put it another way, seeing a person of ___ color on TV doing ____ does convince your brain that in general people of ____ color do ____, because those pattern matching bits aren't sophisticated enough to tell what's on TV apart ... because they evolved long before TV existed)

C) that a person's thinking can be changed by changing the pattern inputs

what kind of proof would convince you of it?

I have proof before my very eyes, Lora. I aint saying TV and media cannot help absolve racism, but not in the way you are describing it as. Simply playing TV shows that depict blacks in a positive light is not going to dissolve the distrust and utter fear/hatred prejudiced whites have for them.

Granted, I will say that depictions of blacks that are negative can serve to only fortify those whites prejudices because those depictions give them a readily available moment of "haha see there?! They all are thugs just like that!"

Fact of the matter is you have to go further than just pleasant visual recognition of other races on TV or in movies to beat down racism and that requires actually getting to know those of the race we distrust/hate.

This is no easy task, because people rarely willingly face those they fear or hate. That's why often times workplaces, schools, etc. help break down racism because these are neutral environments where often times people of many races are thrown together whether they want to be or not.

[loramin]

Y'all are misunderstanding the concept (which is clearly my fault for explaining it poorly). How can I put this, it's not about "changing hearts and minds"; that has nothing to do with it. It's ...

Let's imagine you have a co-worker who always wears red shirts and always gives you a (too strong) friendly punch in the arm when he sees you. Eventually, after seeing him enough times, your brain learns "red shirt = punch". If he hits you hard enough your blood pressure will probably start raising the moment you see him and his red shirt ... before he even punches you, before you even have a conscious thought about him. In fact, your blood pressure will go up when you see anyone in a red shirt, because your body/brain has learned "red shirt = punch incoming".

But none of this is about what you think of the guy: you could love him and think he's a great person and you would still react. It's all way way lower-level than "hearts and minds" and such. But there absolutely is a real biological mechanism in play there: every human being on the planet, if they have that happen to them enough, will start having a physiological reaction to the sight of red shirts. And yes, your blood pressure (and the many other things that can be affected) do affect your thinking.

What does any of this have to do with racism? I can't remember if it was this thread or another one (and now I can't find a link), but in a study they found that when any race/gender (including black men) sees a black man their blood pressure rises. This is not "well my grand pappy taught me to hate black people and now I'm acting on that" kind of stuff, this is low-level behaviorist B. F. Skinner stuff. Think Pavlovian dogs' mouths watering to the sound of a bell (for those of you familiar with that famous experiment).

At the end of the day, it's just patterns. If the only Asian-looking people you see your whole life are villains in a TV show, it's perfectly natural that your brain will learn "Asian-looking person = danger". On a conscious level you might have no racism whatsoever towards Asian people, but your body is still reacting when it sees them. The only way to change that low-level "thinking" is to change the pattern: you need to see Asian-looking people not looking like villains (or anything else threatening) before your blood pressure will stop rising the moment you see an Asian person.

[Lhancelot]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Y'all are misunderstanding the concept (which is clearly my fault for explaining it poorly). How can I put this, it's not about "changing hearts and minds"; that has nothing to do with it. It's ...

Let's imagine you have a co-worker who always wears red shirts and always gives you a (too strong) friendly punch in the arm when he sees you. Eventually, after seeing him enough times, your brain learns "red shirt = punch". If he hits you hard enough your blood pressure will probably start raising the moment you see him and his red shirt ... before he even punches you, before you even have a conscious thought about him. In fact, your blood pressure will go up when you see anyone in a red shirt, because your body/brain has learned "red shirt = punch incoming".

All of that is way way lower-level than "hearts and minds" and such. But there absolutely is a real biological mechanism in play there: every human being on the planet, if they have that happen to them enough, will start having a physiological reaction to the sight of red shirts. And yes, your blood pressure (and the many other things that can be affected) do affect your thinking.

What does any of this have to do with racism? I can't remember if it was this thread or another one (and now I can't find a link), but in a study they found that when any race/gender (including black men) sees a black man their blood pressure rises. This is not "well my grand pappy taught me to hate black people and now I'm acting on that" kind of stuff, this is low-level behaviorist B. F. Skinner stuff. Think Pavlovian dogs' mouths watering to the sound of a bell (for those of you familiar with that famous experiment).

At the end of the day, it's just patterns. If the only Asian-looking people you see your whole life are villains in a TV show, it's perfectly natural that your brain will learn "Asian-looking person = danger". The only way to change that low-level "thinking" is to change the pattern: you need to see Asian-looking people not looking like villains (or anything else threatening) before your blood pressure will stop rising the moment you see an Asian person.

I just think you overestimate how much influence TV actually has when it comes to absolving racism. People recognize what they see on TV is in fact not real.

The goody-two-shoes black character portrayed on TV doesn't convince a raging racist that black people are like him.

You absolve racism by intertwining people together in the flesh, not by having them watch TV shows that prove such people are actually human beings worthy of being treated with equal respect as ones own race.

Until a person is subjected to other races through actual contact they are going to believe in their hearts as they were indoctrinated to believe which is where parenting and family comes in.

Majority of racism is passed down via family lines, not via TV shows and as such racism will not be absolved by TV shows but by the family.

Individuals can learn differently from what they are taught but there is no denying the impact our families have on how we view and react to other races.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Lhancelot [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People recognize what they see on TV is in fact not real.

I'm sorry, but they don't, at least on some level (obviously there are levels that can tell TV is fake). There is a lot of research backing this up.

Again, you just have to remember that when our brains were developing there was no TV: everything we saw was real, and it would have been incredibly wasteful then to slow down our reactions so that we could tell real from fake (when there was no fake). In an evolutionary sense, no time has passed in the centuries since (let alone the meer decades since TV came out).

If you are happy with your opinion and don't want it changed I'll stop there. If you you are open to the possibility that I could be right, just tell me what part is the hardest for you to agree with and I'll do my best to find neutral scientific proof of it. Blue pill or red pill? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm sorry, but they don't, at least on some level (obviously there are levels that can tell TV is fake). Again, you just have to remember that when our brains were developing there was no TV: everything we saw was real. In an evolutionary sense, no time has passed since then (ie. we have the same brains now we had before TV existed), and there is a lot of research backing this up. If you want to hold your opinion and not have it changed if your wrong I'll stop there. If you think it's possible that you're wrong, and your open to that possibility, just tell me what part is the hardest for you to agree with and I'll do my best to find neutral scientific proof of it.

lol. I feel dumb now. Sorry (o^^o). you are a tremendous goof ^^


on topic though, if people around red shirts are more sensitive to red shirts, why would that be? shouldn't Pavlov be paving a road to acceptance for red shirts by reinforcing MANY good images of them? Why the heck would we see the opposite? (assuming your presuppositions hold). I don't get it?

[loramin]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

lol. I feel dumb now. Sorry (o^^o). you are a tremendous goof ^^


on topic though, if people around red shirts are more sensitive to red shirts, why would that be? shouldn't Pavlov be paving a road to acceptance for red shirts by reinforcing MANY good images of them? Why the heck would we see the opposite? (assuming your presuppositions hold). I don't get it?

Huh? The assumption was that getting punched is a bad thing; there were no "good images" in my example. In the real world obviously things are a lot more complex, but my example was just to explain the basic principle.

[Lhancelot]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

lol. I feel dumb now. Sorry (o^^o). you are a tremendous goof ^^


on topic though, if people around red shirts are more sensitive to red shirts, why would that be? shouldn't Pavlov be paving a road to acceptance for red shirts by reinforcing MANY good images of them? Why the heck would we see the opposite? (assuming your presuppositions hold). I don't get it?

Lora is well-intentioned.

If only racism could be destroyed by presenting television viewers with positive images of all the races... We'd not have racism. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I personally grew up as the only white boy on our street. I also went to public schools that had extreme racial violence some of which I witnessed and was part of so I feel very passionate on the topic. I also grew up with a mother that dated outside her racial lines so I not only lived in a black neighborhood but lived with a black man growing up.

I can tell you 100% that my actual experiences formed my thoughts on blacks, and that in no way shape or form would TV or any movies change that perception.

Racism is extremely complicated, I just lack the ability to put into words everything I want to say on the topic, sorry if my posts are jumbled or confusing, or perhaps a bit simplistic.