new patch ench charm

[kanras]

Few other things:

• Could we keep the evidence in this thread, please? Makes it much easier for all parties, I would think.
• There is no "devs", "you guys", with regards to this issue. Other devs knew generally what I was doing, but the change was entirely mine. If you have animosity you want to release, you can send me a PM.
• Try to keep this thread constructive.
• If there's a specific situation that you think is getting unwarranted charm breaks, be sure to post details. For example, "I charmed a light blue mob and it was averaging 2 minute durations over 20 attempts." or "As a level 55 enchanter, a fully tash/malo'd level 45 mob is averaging 30 second durations over 15 attempts". Be sure to pastebin your logs.
• I have read the evidence posted in this thread a couple of times. So just because I don't respond, don't think that it's falling on deaf ears.

[ziahh]

Originally Posted by kanras [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Few other things:

[*]I have read the evidence posted in this thread a couple of times. So just because I don't respond, don't think that it's falling on deaf ears.[/list]

Thx you [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by kanras [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Few other things:

• Could we keep the evidence in this thread, please? Makes it much easier for all parties, I would think.
• There is no "devs", "you guys", with regards to this issue. Other devs knew generally what I was doing, but the change was entirely mine. If you have animosity you want to release, you can send me a PM.
• Try to keep this thread constructive.
• If there's a specific situation that you think is getting unwarranted charm breaks, be sure to post details. For example, "I charmed a light blue mob and it was averaging 2 minute durations over 20 attempts." or "As a level 55 enchanter, a fully tash/malo'd level 45 mob is averaging 30 second durations over 15 attempts". Be sure to pastebin your logs.
• I have read the evidence posted in this thread a couple of times. So just because I don't respond, don't think that it's falling on deaf ears.

Thanks for the response Kanras. I was pretty irritated when it was changed, but this is just a game. No need to go crazy and ragequit, and besides I can't complain too much about a free server. Besides, my toon is plenty effective as is, although it took me a bit to get used to it. I can still go /lfg and get asked to sebilis within 15 minutes (suck it Nalkin!).

If I had to guess, I would say average charm durations on a 50 pet at L55 are about 0.5-1 minute, when they should be 4-5 to be classic, and on a 45 pet maybe 2 minutes when they should be 7-8. But that's just waving my hands and I could be totally wrong, what we need is for someone to make a log of 10-20 charms on a known level mob for a some reasonable data. It's late for me but I'll do it tomorrow night if no one else steps up to the plate (here's looking at you Poule!).

[Sunderfury]

Moving to resolved, future tweaks to duration can be posted anew to link evidence as this thread has gotten a bit sporadic.

[Koota]

At the end of the day, Enchanters now no longer have a need to raise their CHA. That certainly wasn't classic, was it? CHA should be the underlying foundation to their character, and now it does absolutely nothing. Oh, I can get a stack of Water Flasks for 1 silver cheaper. But Calm resist aggro checks aren't affected by it, and now charm is quite literally -useless-.

I agree that Whirl Till You Hurl and even Charm required a nerf, but I really feel like it was taken from one end of the spectrum (OP) and seriously thrown to the bottom of the opposite side of it. They aren't even worth memorizing, much less casting. -Ever-. There really needs to be some middle ground.

I am beyond disenchanted with enchanters right now (no pun intended). The aspect of having to wrangle a hasted pet that could break at any time, CCing, and stun locking kept me doing something in a group at all times. And kept me ENTERTAINED. Now I am nothing short of a half ass'd shaman. With solo pulls I do nothing. Haste and clarity. Nukes generate too much aggro from a warrior who can't taunt off me. Stuns do the same. I literally can not do anything to contribute in a group, other than haste and clarity. Not even trying to QQ, but I feel input on me considering trading my account for another, just because im not enjoying it anymore is warranted to consider 'hey, maybe we did over do it a tad'. My two cents

[Uaellaen]

At the end of the day, Enchanters now no longer have a need to raise their CHA. That certainly wasn't classic, was it? CHA should be the underlying foundation to their character, and now it does absolutely nothing. Oh, I can get a stack of Water Flasks for 1 silver cheaper. But Calm resist aggro checks aren't affected by it, and now charm is quite literally -useless-.

I agree that Whirl Till You Hurl and even Charm required a nerf, but I really feel like it was taken from one end of the spectrum (OP) and seriously thrown to the bottom of the opposite side of it. They aren't even worth memorizing, much less casting. -Ever-. There really needs to be some middle ground.

well as far as i remember classic, enchanters didnt go for 200+ cha gear because charm sucked in classic, and whirl till you hurl was more used as a "mez" type since it breaks on damage ...

with velious or luclin our enchanters started to charm for real ... before that it was always a gamble ...

[Koota]

Originally Posted by Uaellaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

well as far as i remember classic, enchanters didnt go for 200+ cha gear because charm sucked in classic, and whirl till you hurl was more used as a "mez" type since it breaks on damage ...

with velious or luclin our enchanters started to charm for real ... before that it was always a gamble ...

Enchanters I knew on classic went for 200+ CHA gear. And they were also charming imps to do the Efreeti, as well. True, it wasn't reliable all the time, but it was at least usable beyond a minute long duration. And again, I know this is a free server, and because of that reason my irritation with these changes aren't valid or whatever. But, it is what it is.

[ziahh]

Originally Posted by Koota [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Enchanters I knew on classic went for 200+ CHA gear. And they were also charming imps to do the Efreeti, as well. True, it wasn't reliable [I]all the time[/I], but it was at least usable beyond a minute long duration. And again, I know this is a free server, and because of that reason my irritation with these changes aren't valid or whatever. But, it is what it is.

The reason being that a lv 50 enchanter charming a imp lv 46-48 make the grip on your pet very weak, just like before the nerf.
http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.html?id=3275

i really beleive it was working as intended pre nerf . try to charm a krup knight at 53 with boltran agacerie and have a nice grip on your pet with spell file no 7,it was only holding betwin 1-3min max. wasnt even worth the effort solo. could help with exp with heal and a group.

[ziahh]

Originally Posted by Rilen

To harp on a bit of what Throb said. I think most people are misleading themselves in thinking that charm is as it was on live. How many ench did you know with 255 charisma that constantly ran malo/tash on their pets? How many did you know that kept -MR items bagged specifically to give to pets to lower their break chances?

Like many things here, they seem OP'd because everyone knows the name of the game already. On live MANY things simply were not done the way they are here because of a lack of general knowledge of such things. I distinctly remember enchanters doing duo/trio work in Kunark, and I remember when my group of friends first got started in Velious charming giants in the arena. My little collective of friends would have been incapable of doing anything were it not for the ench holding a lieutenant in the arena as a pet.

The reason I remember for charm and pets in general not being as prevalent in the experience scene is that pets ALWAYS took a percentage of exp; even if you did 5 damage or whatever. Also, like Throb said, people had a stigma about people not controlling their pets, or a paranoia about pet pathing that over-rode whatever assistance they might have given on raids.

And to reiterate some of what I said, even after the charm nerfs on live I ran a PLing service for 60+ characters using druid charm as my primary method of xp. This was on a DRUID with approximately 200 charisma, no dire charm. I had no problem keeping pets for 10 minutes to kill 3-5 mobs before the charm broke and then I'd DD/DoT and kill the pet.

As it stands now, between not being able to retrieve items from pets, and the charms seeming to be entirely level based, the charm line for all classes involved is nearly useless. This isn't the way it should be for a character with 255 charisma, malo, and 5-10 levels on the mob being charmed.

It needs to be recognized that while people may not have their own anecdotal evidence of charm being powerful (or any "overused" ability here), 90% of that reason is because this server has MANY players with MUCH higher skill than any of our live servers had. The worst guilds on this server are still 10x better, and more knowledgeable than most of the population of any live server. Most people here flat out play at a higher skill level than what was seen normally on live. We don't all deserve to suffer, or be forced into some niche of mediocrity simply because we know what we're doing or understand how to play the game.

[Blingx]

Originally Posted by ziahh [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by Rilen

To harp on a bit of what Throb said. I think most people are misleading themselves in thinking that charm is as it was on live. How many ench did you know with 255 charisma that constantly ran malo/tash on their pets? How many did you know that kept -MR items bagged specifically to give to pets to lower their break chances?

Like many things here, they seem OP'd because everyone knows the name of the game already. On live MANY things simply were not done the way they are here because of a lack of general knowledge of such things. I distinctly remember enchanters doing duo/trio work in Kunark, and I remember when my group of friends first got started in Velious charming giants in the arena. My little collective of friends would have been incapable of doing anything were it not for the ench holding a lieutenant in the arena as a pet.

The reason I remember for charm and pets in general not being as prevalent in the experience scene is that pets ALWAYS took a percentage of exp; even if you did 5 damage or whatever. Also, like Throb said, people had a stigma about people not controlling their pets, or a paranoia about pet pathing that over-rode whatever assistance they might have given on raids.

And to reiterate some of what I said, even after the charm nerfs on live I ran a PLing service for 60+ characters using druid charm as my primary method of xp. This was on a DRUID with approximately 200 charisma, no dire charm. I had no problem keeping pets for 10 minutes to kill 3-5 mobs before the charm broke and then I'd DD/DoT and kill the pet.

As it stands now, between not being able to retrieve items from pets, and the charms seeming to be entirely level based, the charm line for all classes involved is nearly useless. This isn't the way it should be for a character with 255 charisma, malo, and 5-10 levels on the mob being charmed.

It needs to be recognized that while people may not have their own anecdotal evidence of charm being powerful (or any "overused" ability here), 90% of that reason is because this server has MANY players with MUCH higher skill than any of our live servers had. The worst guilds on this server are still 10x better, and more knowledgeable than most of the population of any live server. Most people here flat out play at a higher skill level than what was seen normally on live. We don't all deserve to suffer, or be forced into some niche of mediocrity simply because we know what we're doing or understand how to play the game.

1. No cha, yes tash, yes malo if avail. Don't know of anyone on live or on P99 to carry -MR items for pets.
2. solo?
3. Something that should be implemented on P99?
4. Druids need cha?