How about...(raidmobs)

[Loke]

Originally Posted by Maze513 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Now he might be on to something here.... if every asshat ans hasbin has a tooth and there for access to VP.. This would change alot of peoples tunes about "How bad they want it" when damn near anyone can get it =p

O_o even if he drops 50 teeth, you realize you still need to kill him to get those teeth, right?

[YendorLootmonkey]

I don't see how 100% variance will eliminate poopsocking between two guilds who have already demonstrated they will do whatever it takes to kill the target first. And if that means poopsocking longer because the spawn window is greater, then that's what it will boil down to until you burn everyone in your guilds out until you can no longer muster a raid force, and then you'll have to merge/mass-recruit again.

As was said above, the only way to fix this is to change the attitudes. VP is not important. The world will not end if someone else gets a raid target. People won't remember what pixels you had.

[Mezzmur]

Originally Posted by Loke [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

...
I have yet to see TMO provide an idea that isn't "Lets poopsock on the ledge as opposed to on the spawn point" - which is basically the same thing.
...

I'm TMO and I posted a suggestion in several threads and have not had a single reply.

Originally Posted by Mezzmur [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I posted this on the RNF thread initially, but there were no replies/responses to it. I think poopsocking is inevitable in some form or another. If someone wants a mob (which trak seems to be the soup de jour) they're going to do whatever it takes to get it. If 2 mobs are in window, it's whatever mob is the #1 choice.

An example is VS vs Trak last week. We opted to roll the dice and wait at VS and then move to Trak. It's possible that Trak pops before VS and we miss it. Such is the game you play.

As Karst suggested in the conversation to move to jugg door, you'll just have people pooping at the door. Then you'll have trains, flames, and leapfrogging as everyone scrambles to get back to ledge as it is everywhere else. My vote is just to prevent spawn-socking and leave the rest as is with FTE. It's been like that for a long time now, but became more of an issue when the highest-end targets became hotly contested as opposed to being nearly solo targets. We spent a lot of times cothing down(and watching TR kill or wipe) and trying to race while TR was already camped there and logged in faster. I clearly remember that being the point at which I was told we were going to log at the ledge too, because a coth race can't beat a login race.

Here's what I said elsewhere:
GMs should make Trak AE Banish to bubble for the first 15 seconds if you aggro. Prevent spawn-socking and promote ledge camping. All I've heard is camping @ a mob buffed when in window since I've been leveled enough to raid. Not just Trak, hear about TR & others at VS, etc. As someone said previously, I thought people buffed/camped @ other targets pre-kunark when a target was very important to them.

If a target becomes less important, the camping will slow or stop. Right now, Trak is #1 for almost everyone because of VP keys, so it's going to remain highly contested for a while.


If you have 1-2-3-4+ guilds, it won't matter. First one to get in and engage with the right numbers wins. We've spent plenty of times having 40+ people at ledge and not prepared to engage and TR starts to engage. Or we've jumped the gun and wiped. The drama really started when socking spawn and claiming the mob with 15 people. FTE will bite people in the ass and you'll win some or lose some. It's an easy way for a GM to come in and say "yes, you won agro" or not.

This gets more difficult because rules on other mobs(like sev) are no kiting til engaging. You'll still get petitions and require GM interactions unless you had a spawn-location-leash where the dragon was auto-reset if kited or pulled for too long. I'm pretty sure NToV dragons had something of this nature.

Again -- this is all non-classic -- but it could help with some of the server issues to allow for competition. Otherwise just leave it all as it was and deal with socking for a few months. My vote is on FTE and if I want to stay logged in I can, if I don't like the idea of being a raider, can join another guild and be a casual player. People have those options.

Moving outside the door is going to create leapfrogging and training and is nearly impossible for anyone to enforce. And lead to more GM petitions. Even if trains are accidental -- they happen and in raid situations people escalate instantly. I was in a King group and Taken was heading to juggs and got a lot of adds while our puller was splitting. The initial reaction is "you trained us" even when it's an accident. *shrug* A code side change is consistent and we already have non-classic encounters.

If people want to camp on the ledge and play alts then mobilize as fast as they can, I think it's their prerogative. It's the spawn-socking that's what sucks, never being afk, imho. But - I think most people are willing to do what they need to do to get through the VP-Key-Bottleneck right now.

2c

[Loke]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't see how 100% variance will eliminate poopsocking between two guilds who have already demonstrated they will do whatever it takes to kill the target first. And if that means poopsocking longer because the spawn window is greater, then that's what it will boil down to until you burn everyone in your guilds out until you can no longer muster a raid force, and then you'll have to merge/mass-recruit again.

As was said above, the only way to fix this is to change the attitudes. VP is not important. The world will not end if someone else gets a raid target. People won't remember what pixels you had.

I disagree, you realize that they'd have to spend 24 hours a day, 7 days a week on every spawn they wanted to poopsock? I'm as hard core as the next power gamer, but that simply isn't possible. Even with the 15 man rule that would mean 15 people actively online in one spot for.. well, ever. I'm willing to bet 100k that no guild would do that. What would happen is guilds would find a location that they feel allowed them the quickest access to the mobs they want. Maybe people would camp down in trak's lair, but unless they plan on spending every waking second down there for the rest of the time they play here, they're going to leave eventually. I honestly think it would force guilds into mobilization more - while Trak's lair might be the home base for guilds to mobilize from, the poopsocking would have to essentially end.

[Mezzmur]

Originally Posted by Loke [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I disagree, you realize that they'd have to spend 24 hours a day, 7 days a week on every spawn they wanted to poopsock? I'm as hard core as the next power gamer, but that simply isn't possible. Even with the 15 man rule that would mean 15 people actively online in one spot for.. well, ever. I'm willing to bet 100k that no guild would do that. What would happen is guilds would find a location that they feel allowed them the quickest access to the mobs they want. Maybe people would camp down in trak's lair, but unless they plan on spending every waking second down there for the rest of the time they play here, they're going to leave eventually. I honestly think it would force guilds into mobilization more - while Trak's lair might be the home base for guilds to mobilize from, the poopsocking would have to essentially end.

One thing people miss is that 95% of TMO and TR do camp on the ledge. You usually have 1-3 people watching the spawn and sometimes people doing reets/juggs.

Most people go afk, wait for batphone or play alts. Of all the kills TMO have been involved in, only 1 was spawn-socking and it was because Trak was down to the last 6 hours of his spawn window. At that point, the probability is so high, everyone was just sitting and waiting.

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by Maze513 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Now he might be on to something here.... if every asshat ans hasbin has a tooth and there for access to VP.. This would change alot of peoples tunes about "How bad they want it" when damn near anyone can get it =p

just an idea but: FREE Veeshans Peak!

LOOT MEANS NOTHING IF THOSE OTHER NORMAL PEOPLE HAVE IT.

[Aadill]

Originally Posted by Mezzmur [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Mezzmur's 2 coppers

^ Not only that but a petition was already sent in to remove 15 man on spawn permanently from the rules.

A gentlemen's agreement to camp on ledge should've been made the norm when Kinsawt and Zeelot were talking. That's a reasonable expectation of any guild to at least reaffirm the need to race and not stand around with auto attack on. When it was turned into where rules about where anyone is allowed to camp, how many people can log in, and what mobs they are allowed to kill Zeelot said no. I don't blame him one bit because that's not a suggestion anyone can enforce.

Camping on spawns is something that we should avoid. Apparently everyone enjoyed the rush for Trak the other morning when everyone was on the ledge, so why not continue to enjoy that? On the patch day last week we all expected Trak to pop and we all ran into Trak's lair. The claim in say was "15 ON SPAWN IT'S OURS GET OUT" was made. TMO didn't move against that claim but herded groups to go kill another raid mob that popped. Our prerogative was to bring loot to the guild and we did. We didn't want the 15 man on spawn rule to be enforced and didn't realize TR was being serious about it because no one had used it in months. When they invoked it days later we took measures to petition to remove it (seeing as TR wants it removed as well I don't see a problem with this).

Those are the first steps, what next?

[Happyfeet]

Originally Posted by tekniq [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

i'm tellin you guys. GMs should spawn ALL mobs at once so everyone will have a chance to get their players, strategize on importance and mobilize to get the most targets for theday.

That doesn't solve anything, because Trak is still top priority for TMO/TR. All that would do is give other guilds besides those two a single chance at VS before Trak is dead in 2 minutes and TMO/TR are porting to DL and gating to their binds at KC to then steal VS if not instantly killed.
Doesn't solve Trak, and allows a single chance for other guilds to get VS =/= solution to anything.

[Aadill]

It's a more viable solution than the others I have read. It's not just about TMO/TR*.

*Granted, the largest set of forum posts seem to come from IB/DA TR/Asc TR/TMO flames.

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by Mcbard [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I generally stay out of these threads because they're stupid, and I like you Bubbles but I don't think you know this encounter very well! You can't dodge the AE by hiding behind a rock or anything, so hiding casters isn't going to work, if you time the ae you're going to lose so much dps that your tanks are just going to die/get shroomed and you will lose (see positioning), and Trak doesn't blind on this server and never has.

Just sayin'! <3

I was always stuck AE healing / Curing 5 wizards, and we'd move as a unit. The bonus, of course, being that i literally only had to keep them alive till they were OOM and then i'd pick and choose who lived (cure) and died post fight like i was, indeed, God.

Obviously i wasn't advocating melee dps doing anything but taking poison like champs for the team. And their clerics are simply going to have to bounce between AE heals and DAs and not eff positioning while staring at the dragon's toes, yeah.

He seriously doesn't blind on here? that was the only amusing part of the encounter. And, of course, his only real defense against a zerg force.