And now we're terrorists..

[Daldolma]

Originally Posted by Humerox [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The fact remains that a lot of people get the fact that a lot of things are wrong, and that the non-rich haven't been properly served for a very long time.

That's true. And I agree with that, for what it's worth.

[Hasbinbad]

The problem with defining a limited scope of goals is that they could provide half measures to shut us up on those few things, leaving them unchanged in reality and then ignore the rest of what is wrong. By not allowing them to categorize and minimize us, we make it impossible to do so. Thank you for your good luck wishes.

[Hasbinbad]

Working within the system for change is what has not worked. We are now exploring other options.

For historical reference, I'm very sure a snide Englishman once said "Those settlers want to revolt from the crown? Haha, Okay. Good luck with that."

[Daldolma]

Are you attempting to secede now?

Working within the system for massive reform has worked a dozen times over throughout US history. Moreover, OWS has never attempted to work within the system. There hasn't been a national election since OWS was founded.

What is it that you realistically expect to do? When I say you, I mean you -- not OWS as a whole. Realistically, how do you see OWS playing out?

[Hasbinbad]

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Are you attempting to secede now?

Working within the system for massive reform has worked a dozen times over throughout US history. Moreover, OWS has never attempted to work within the system. There hasn't been a national election since OWS was founded.

What is it that you realistically expect to do? When I say you, I mean you -- not OWS as a whole. Realistically, how do you see OWS playing out?

I honestly don't know, maybe some politicians will start paying attention to something other than lobbyists.

If that is ALL that happens, OWS is a success.

I have a feeling it will be more than that.

[Hasbinbad]

As for seceding, no. World revolution dude. 1300 major cities around the world have occupy encampments right now. This is only a couple months old.

[Daldolma]

Politicians already do pay attention to a lot of things other than lobbyists. The ultimate goal of 90% of politicians is to be re-elected. Usually, lobbyists are the most capable of making that happen. Contributions = exposure = votes. But if there's a large voting bloc within a constituency, that precludes the influence of lobbyists. No matter how much a pro-gay marriage lobbyist is willing to spend on a Kentucky Senator, he's not getting a gay marriage vote. It's not a big conspiracy. Plenty of Congressmen are idiots that come from unspectacular backgrounds -- they're not part of some interlocked alliance of elites.

OWS is already capable of making politicians listen to something other than lobbyists. That's my point. OWS, right now, would likely be capable of garnering enough public support to reinstate Glass-Steagall. Or to raise taxes on the wealthy.

When you talk about changing everything, I don't see what you mean or how that's realistic. Banks are still going to be extraordinarily wealthy and influential -- there's no changing that. The rich are still going to wield disproportionate influence. But changes can be made, and OWS needs to narrow their scope if they want to do that.

[Hasbinbad]

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When you talk about changing everything, I don't see what you mean or how that's realistic.

One issue, one step at a time.

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Banks are still going to be extraordinarily wealthy and influential -- there's no changing that.

I invite you to look up why the French celebrate Bastille Day.
I invite you to look up why the Americans celebrate Independence Day.

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The rich are still going to wield disproportionate influence.

They wield exactly the amount of influence we've allowed them to accumulate. It is our mess, and some of us are going to clean it up.

There is an essential disconnect between people of the last generation and people of the emergent generation. It can be summed up with a allegories about trash and amphibians.

Trash:

There is an island of non-biodegradable junk in the pacific ocean which has an area twice the size of Texas. I really don't need to say anything more about this.

Amphibians:

Right now, all amphibians are dying.

That sounds alarmist, unrealistic, and untrue, but it's a fact.

In the 1940's, the African Claw-Toed frog was widely exported because when you inject it with a pregnant female humans urine, it produces eggs. This strange property allowed it to be used as a pregnancy test, in a time before EPT.

What people didn't know then, and what we know now is that the African Claw Toed frog, as part of it's natural flora, harbored a type of fungus called Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis (commonly called "the chytrid fungus" after the division name for that type of fungi). As part of this animals natural flora, it helped protect this animal from other pathogens, and was contained within it's natural environment through ecological means. Chytrid grows on the skin of any amphibian, however, and in the absense of natural measures to contain it, has grown rampant worldwide. The problem with chytrid fungus is that when it grows on amphibians other than the African Claw Toed Frog in that animals natural environment, it forms a waxy coat on the skin of the host amphibian. The problem with that is that amphibians breath and drink partially through their skin.

The death rate of inoculated amphibians is 100%.

Do I need to explain the cycle of life?

Now. One option is to throw our hands up in the air and say "what can we do about such a huge problem?" There is no easy way to fix it, and we certainly aren't going to get any major help from governments bent on imperialism. However, the other option is to find a way.

Many older scientists have thrown their hands up in the air, apathized by apathy. This is anecdotal and empirical, but I'm sure there are sources you can find that will give you the same review of some of the older generation of scientists.

There are, however, a new generation of young scientists (lulz) who are unwilling to say "this problem is too big," and they are actively working to find real solutions. Just a couple years ago, there was no feasible solution for the garbage, now there are a dozen - and figuring out which one to implement is now their major task. Similarly, a couple years ago, most people who knew about the chytrid crisis threw their hands up in the air, not seeing a possible solution, as it then and currently affects some groups in every population of every species of amphibian in the world. Some of the new generation have actually started to go into each group in a population and hand-inoculate individuals with an organism that outcompetes chytrid without harming the frogs. These individuals have survived, and their groups have flourished. So there is a solution, it just had to be found.

The problem with our government is not too big of a problem. They are not too powerful. Their power flows from us. They have forgotten this and need to be reinformed. If that requires that we fire each and every individual in public service, and rip up centuries of bullshit laws fought for by lobbyists of the powerful, then so be it.

One step at a time.

[Humerox]

Well...the first job is to change the process in electing government, and take the corporate lackey out of the picture. Hence my long-lost post about http://beyourgovernment.com/.

It's a wickedly easy way of effecting change, and social media is powerful enough to drive it.

[Hasbinbad]

Just trying to change that one thing is like fixing the garbage output problem from new zealand while allowing america and china to keep dumping into the ocean.