Luclin

[August]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm told most people either think Velious or PoP was the high point of EQ. I'm curious why people hated whatever expac came after PoP (I quite on Live just after Kunark, so all these expacs are new to me)

It's because GoD was just god-awful and scaled horribly.

I was a time-geared tank and I remember dying horribly and being unable to take hits in the first instance I went into. I honestly don't remember that much because I pretty much quit after being so frustrated after a couple of months. I remember everything just hitting way too hard and multiple wipes. I can't even imagine what the 'casual' crowd must of thought as I was rocking probably 3/4 PoT gear the rest being elemental.

As to why people like Velious - I think that Luclin furthered the divide between the 'haves' and the 'have nots' in EQ. If you weren't max level you couldn't think about AAs. If you didn't have the time to get 270 AAs to be raid-capable then you got kicked out, etc. I think Original-Velious represents a certain class of people and I think Orginal-PoP represents that other class of people. Game died @ GoD for me.

[Acrux Bcrux]

I remember a lot of talk going around during god /oow that you really couldnt complete god progession without oow gear. Maybe some guilds did it, i dont know for sure but i do know it was hard as fuxxx. These two expansions were almost released in the wrong order from what i remember, or thats atleast what a lot of the talk was.

[August]

Originally Posted by pasi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The first expansion after PoP was a cash grab for armor dye, charms, and bank slots.
The next expansion after PoP was predominately a grouping expansion that was incredibly casual friendly. The raids for it were ridiculously difficult for the rewards though.

The first 'true expansion' after PoP was Gates of Discord which most people attribute to the death of the game. Gates of Discord was intended for and tuned for level 70 characters, but the level cap was still 65. IMO, it was the first time in EQ that the game was actually difficult (and by difficult, I don't just mean very punishing for stupid mistakes like EQ up to then was).

Gates had awesome encounter design, but the content was completely overtuned and I think the expansion had only 6 or 7 different NPC models. Every zone also looked the same.

To give you a rough idea of how difficult the expansion was at release - take Uqua 1.0. For starters, the entire zone had an unresistable permanent AOE that reduced your base stats to 100ish. This was only blockable by archetype-equippable items that dropped 1 per trash mob. Each trash mob quadded for 3000 (what 72man raid bosses in the previous expansion hit for. This was in an era where top end warriors were 10k HP with the zone debuff. Every death in the zone spawned another trash mob that quadded for 3k. Now, you could single pull trash, but pulling was complicated in that mobs were spawned off traps rather than static spawns. The entire zone had a timer so you had to move at a certain pace. As time went on, NPCs got more ATK, HP, Armor, Resists, etc. And that's all before the first bosses of the zone.

Now, I'm sure people who never experienced it like the increased difficulty, but the game was bleeding subs and WoW was in beta at this time. The majority of the playerbase was basically confined to a few really shitty instances simply because they didn't have the gear to progress. If you look back at this time, you'll see most of the 'old uber' guilds died off around this time and there was a changing of the guard of top dog guilds.

Kinda sucked that Omens of War was such a great expansion since the damage from Gates had already been done.

We were typing at the same time -- but yes, exactly this. Couldn't remember the names of the damn zones, but I do remember just thinking this stuff was so overpowered it was unbelievable. My guild disbanded due to the increased difficulty and there really was a consolidation of guilds

[August]

Originally Posted by pasi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The first expansion after PoP was a cash grab for armor dye, charms, and bank slots.
The next expansion after PoP was predominately a grouping expansion that was incredibly casual friendly. The raids for it were ridiculously difficult for the rewards though.

This was LoY and then LDoN? I remember doing the instance content (sand place, mistmoore-ish type place, etc) and then wondering why I was doing it - IIRC the rewards were like augments or like, sub-ornate level gear. My guild did the raids a couple of times and i remember thinking the only reason the gear was even close to worthwhile was multiple sockets for augments. I do remember there being something specific about charging an item - maybe a ranged slot? for those instanced dungeons. The expac was semi-fun.

[pasi]

Yeah, I was a full P4/P5 time with pretty close to perfect augments (I had the 35 AC LdoN raid augment for shield, but was lacking other LDoN raid augs) as an SK, and I couldn't do Ikkinz 2 without exploit aggro kiting the 2nd priest before the nerf.

That's a good snapshot of the expansion - needing a cleric/cleric/warrior/warrior for a 6 man group. At least warriors sucked at Ikkinz 3.

[pasi]

Originally Posted by August [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This was LoY and then LDoN? I remember doing the instance content (sand place, mistmoore-ish type place, etc) and then wondering why I was doing it - IIRC the rewards were like augments or like, sub-ornate level gear. My guild did the raids a couple of times and i remember thinking the only reason the gear was even close to worthwhile was multiple sockets for augments. I do remember there being something specific about charging an item - maybe a ranged slot? for those instanced dungeons. The expac was semi-fun.

The LDoN gear was actually outstanding if you took the time to grind it or exploit kill # missions with a clay bracelet.

Originally, the armor could be hit with 3 40 HP augs so it was 100+40+40+40 which was at least on the HP level, equivalent to top-end raid stuff. Even after the nerf, you could get 140 HP stuff with slots for secondary stats/effects. The problem was if you were playing LDoN that hardcore to buy all this stuff, you might as well just raid.

Yes, more LDoN powered up your adventurer's stone which augmented your charm slot. The only charm slot worth a shit would have been the PoP progression one.

Originally Posted by Acrux Bcrux [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I remember a lot of talk going around during god /oow that you really couldnt complete god progession without oow gear. Maybe some guilds did it, i dont know for sure but i do know it was hard as fuxxx. These two expansions were almost released in the wrong order from what i remember, or thats atleast what a lot of the talk was.

Gates of Discord wasn't cleared until everything in Omens of War minus OMM and Arch Mage had also been killed. Even on the recent progression server with lots of overpowered stuff being left in the game from future expansions, I don't think Tacvi was fully cleared.

[t0lkien]

Originally Posted by Ryba [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm glad I read some of this thread or I would have wasted time typing out pretty much this exactly.

And t0lkien: I usually agree with your posts, but your opinion-- "Luclin *did* break the game, in so many ways, and it has been pointed out in many threads before this" --is still just an opinion, even if it is dressed up like an absolute statement. In fact, a lot of evidence points to Luclin being a profitable and well received expansion. Was everyone who played it foolishly deriving pleasure from a broken game?

Luclin had a bunch of shit in it, but so did EQ classic. Everyone is simply less critical of classic EQ because it was still establishing a baseline for how to think about MMORPGs. So we don't revile things like horrible melee itemization and class balance in classic because we thought that that's Just How It Is.

The whole point is moot because AAs were "gutted" from the code early on. But I would be much more enthusiastic about playing here if I knew the server would stop at PoP where raiding would open up once and for all. Quarm event is somewhat anticlimactic, but it does feel like it put SOME kind of a capstone on the game.

It is odd to me that some people don't see Luclin and PoP as adding anything worthwhile. Sony left the elf fantasy canon to do something original but flawed, and I think it is remarkable that they were able to release 4 playable expansions before coughing up the turd known as GoD. If we were taking sides, I would much rather hang out with the apologists than the purists. Nobody likes a hipster.

Warning, incoming WOT, but all the points being aggressively thrown out in this discussion can't be answered quickly (though they've been answered before).

Thanks for the kudos, and for the record, I'm totally aware of the subjectivity/objectivity conundrum. However, I would still argue that Luclin did objectively break the game that existed up to Velious. I've said before that I also liked aspects of Luclin (SSRAE and other Luclin zones featured in my colour peaced linked in another thread) so it's not a matter of what I liked or didn't like. It's a matter of looking at it objectively and seeing the inevitable result of the things implemented on the future of the game. I and all my friends felt this death the first time we saw a 100+hp item linked in chat. We just couldn't then articulate why it diminished the game, but we intuitively knew it did. With the benefit of hindsight, now I can.

I and others have pointed this out before, and the points keep being challenged so I'm going to do it again, but beware it's a bit of a read:

1. The context. Cats on the Moon, clearly sci-fi inspired artwork (because, you know, it's on the moon which is in space), and so many other subtle breaks from the High Fantasy world created and adhered to up to Velious. Yes I know EQ was always an uneven mish-mash of D&D/clumsy RPG styling. But the general feel was there, and clear. Luclin was an ugly diversion from this made by people who obviously had no feel for or understanding of what had gone before. Context matters - in fact, after a lifetime playing and reading this stuff, and 15 years trying to make it, I actually think it matters more than any other single thing in game development. Context first, then gameplay which draws naturally from and is empowered by the context (in RPGs).
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2. Stat mudflation. Luclin fundamentally undermined every system in the game by blowing the stat increases available via itemization off the chart. This is the inevitable result of continuing a game beyond it's original design, but it means that all the systems (which comprise literally millions+ of interactions of all the numbers that make up the game) are trivialized and unbalanced. The game lost its very carefully guarded numerical heart, and as one who was there from day one I remember how long it took SOE to plug even the most obvious holes with constant patches for the first few months. Anyone who has tried to build an RPG system will understand why this out of proportion stat increase negatively affected game mechanics, the entire feel of the game, and the economy. It changes the game irrevocably, and is the thing that Luclin "broke" most. It pushed it and other MMOs into what I call the "big number system" world. For a look at that, see any Asian MMO. They are very different experiences as a result, and were designed to be so from the ground up, so everything (even the art) plays into it. For a game that was designed to be the opposite from its outset, it was a death blow to the original systems. The Bazaar had the identical direct effect upon the economy, and player interaction and reputation it was built around. If you make things easier, you reduce their value and the value of anything that depended on or fed off them. You can argue about that point as much as you like, it's like arguing against gravity. It's just how it works.
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3. The undermining of class distinction. This is a huge one, and Luclin only started it but it opened the door. Ensuing expansions up to and through PoP completed the devastation. When you supply free insta-ports to everyone when previously it was restricted as an earned (read gameplay) class ability to certain classes, when you duplicate existing class defining abilities in "new" classes (Beastmaster), when you introduce mounts to increase player speed when that speed increase ability was a core element in other classes (SoW, Bardsong - an absolute class defining ability; the Bard is built around and balanced off movement speed in every single area of its design), when you supply insta-click items that begin to give every class the ability to do these class-defining things - you blur, undermine, and ultimately remove the beautiful interactions between and value of classes you created the previous expansions. You trivialize the epic feel of the world you carefully created. You devalue player choices. It's literally designer bi-polarism to do something like that. You build up and ruthlessly guard your world only to tear it down. It makes no sense. AA's are included here. I liked them too in concept, but they as much as anything brutalized class separation and distinction which relies upon careful limits as much as it relies upon clearly defined abilities.

There are many other issues that extend naturally from these three. It's a tsunami of rippled effect that meant the end of the original (classic) experience. I know lots of people liked it, and didn't care for or about any of the things lost or foreshadowed as lost in Luclin. The point is they are liking a different type of game and gameplay, and there are literally hundreds of games now that supply that experience.

They also don't understand that when you gain that higher level or new ability or huge HP item, while it initially makes you feel more powerful that is only in context with the world it exists within. If that world is blown up in similar proportion to match the new power (as it must be to keep the game playable), you have gained nothing and lost elegance, balance, and value. You've also trivialized everything that went before it. This is so obvious to me that it's a little frustrating when so many people just don't or can't get it.

But in the end that's ok... I and others who do get it will just move to the places where those things exist (e.g. p99). What's truly bizarre is when those places attract others who go there for what it is, and then agitate to pull it down with the same changes that destroyed it originally. Why do you want every game to be the same? Don't you understand the things that you are desiring to bring here are the very things that killed classic in the first place? If you acknowledge the classic experience enough to play p99, you must understand why it's good, even intuitively. So to want to change it (again) is contradictory. And honestly, it's deeply bemusing for those of us who clearly understand why it is good, and what it is, and are pretty happy it exists in the form of p99 at all - imperfect though that may be.

[Champion_Standing]

Originally Posted by t0lkien [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In the end that's ok... I and others who do get it will just move to the places where those things exist (e.g. p99). What's truly bizarre is when those places attract others who go there for what it is, and then agitate to pull it down with the same changes that destroyed it originally. So Surely you can see how ironic, frustrating, and aggravating that is. Why do you want every game to be the same? Don't you understand the things that you are desiring to bring here are the very things that killed classic in the first place? If you acknowledge the classic experience enough to play p99, you must understand why it's good, even intuitively. So to want to change is contradictory. And honestly, it's deeply bemusing for those of us who clearly understand why it is good, and what it is, and are pretty happy it exists in the form of p99 at all - imperfect though that may be.

Not going to quote your entire massive post. But seriously man? Just because people say they enjoyed themselves in luclin and liked certain features of it doesn't mean they are trying to usurp and destroy project 1999. Just hearing people say they liked AAs or a certain zone in luclin gets you pretty fired up huh? All i see here are people that liked some stuff about Luclin and later expansions and they are discussing it...but you see an angry mob ready to hold a gun to Nilbogs head and make him add Luclin to the server? What is up with that....seriously?

[t0lkien]

Originally Posted by Champion_Standing [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not going to quote your entire massive post. But seriously man? Just because people say they enjoyed themselves in luclin and liked certain features of it doesn't mean they are trying to usurp and destroy project 1999. Just hearing people say they liked AAs or a certain zone in luclin gets you pretty fired up huh?

Dude, did you read anything I wrote?

[Champion_Standing]

Originally Posted by t0lkien [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Dude, did you read anything I wrote?

Did you not read your own last paragraph? You are clearly suggesting that people here are trying to change P99 lol.