ATTN: All Raiding Guilds

[Pan]

There's a medium-sized elephant in this particular room, too, that hasn't been addressed for good reason. And that is:

Guilds have gotten together amongst themselves and established rotations for various targets and zones. Some more formal than others. And some more persistent than others.

Whether people want to talk about it (or the barrier to entry into these rotations) is pretty irrelevant. But what IS relevant is that as a stopgap to some of the idiocy in the rules and the mechanics, that is a go-to play for nearly all of us (us included in our sphere).

So there's that, too.

[Kileras]

Divinity / Anon would like to have 1 representative each. Our working together is very recent and while I understand where Chest is coming from I don't think that either of us would feel comfortable not being present. I have no interest in this taking all day and I am not a parrot, I am here to listen and hopefully contribute in any way I can to make this somehow get better.

I plan on being there, and actually excited to meet you all more formally and at the least develop a discourse with some of you.

[arsenalpow]

I'm interested in a productive summit, and having 3 people representing the same exact raiding entity under the guise of "we're 3 separate raiding guilds guy" is counter productive. Cloki is going to make some point with a bunch of five syllable words, then Nemce will vehemently agree with Cloki and expound upon that exact same position, then Culkasi can also chip in with agreement give more of the exact same points. That won't be productive. I've only been to every single one of these things, I know how they go. You should send one rep or have one speaking rep.

[Sirken]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm interested in a productive summit, and having 3 people representing the same exact raiding entity under the guise of "we're 3 separate raiding guilds guy" is counter productive. Cloki is going to make some point with a bunch of five syllable words, then Nemce will vehemently agree with Cloki and expound upon that exact same position, then Culkasi can also chip in with agreement give more of the exact same points. That won't be productive. I've only been to every single one of these things, I know how they go. You should send one rep or have one speaking rep.

Each guild can send 1 rep. if you don't like it, you don't have to attend.

if someone is just going to parrot a previous speaker, then i'm just going to cut them off and move on to the next person. ideally, if a person just wants to echo something that's already been said, they can simply say "i agree with everything soandso said"

[Pint]

its time to get real and start exchanging ideas on the problems with the rules as they pertain to velious. i do not want to be condescending but awakened and aftermath know significantly more than the rest of you in relation to what the problems are with these zones with the current rule set. it would be very beneficial for you guys to start throwing out specifics and to start asking questions about what and why certain things are problematic. i know youre all going to want to discuss the train pulling issue which is absolutely fair game, but you also need to begin to establish an understanding of some of the real week in and week out issues that we're having in these zones if you want to participate in fixing them.

most of the consistent problems revolve around "vicinity of mob X", what is a kite and what amount of wiggle room is there for a messy pull to not be classified as a kite, what is a stall and what amount of wiggle room is there for a botched and recovered engage to not be considered a stall.

it is also worth everyone's time to try and set out a clear set of standards for minimizing the sock and competing for FTE if you truly wish to start entering tov and kael. if you do not clearly set out standards for these zones then awakened and aftermath will start an arms race to muscle you out of them.

the bolded parts are 4 issues i think you all need to begin to get a good grasp of before you enter a real time 8 way discussion on topics that you might not know enough about to make a well informed decision.

[Pint]

csg and anon/div thing isnt a terribly big deal to aftermath, they can all have input, they should vote as a singular block though obviously.

[Sirken]

to clarify, if your guild has access to these forums, then the staff probably considers you a raiding guild.

you'd think my post said only Awakened and Aftermath are invited based on the messages i've gotten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Pan]

Pint, there's no doubt that you guys are far more experienced with the mechanics of those zones and the problems that they create. And our input will be limited and based on MUCH less experience than yours. I'm under no illusions that way.

And I think we all share the goal and values of reducing the sock and having a sane raid environment.

And, for the record, I'm not necessarily against the idea of "train pulling" if that's how it shakes out.

On some level, I don't really care what the ruleset ends up being as long as it's:
1) communicated
2) enforced
3) enforced consistently

We can adapt our playstyle to whatever the owners of the p99 box dictate.

That said, part of your advocacy is based on the playstyle that you've adopted. You state:

It's probably worth acknowledging that VP trash repops in 6 minutes and tov takes 72 minutes. I also don't want to gloss over the fact that your guilds would be happy to take a few hours to kill 1 dragon and find that rewarding, it would be rewarding and fun. The problem is that the larger guilds probably wouldn't be patient enough to wait you out and additionally depending on the dragon your multi hour long pursuit puts you in the way of the other 14 potential dragons.

Not wanting to be patient on your part is a choice. Should I advocate patience in the meeting, that's my choice - and has nothing to do with my understanding of the intricacies of the pulls and mechanics there. But you are NOT, logically, ethically, conceptually, or any other -lly more right than I in your position. They're just different. And that's part of the reason for the discussion.

Hypothetically, they could say "fuck it" and decide to tether the nameds in NToV and delete the accounts of trainers. And we'd (collectively) deal with it. Or, on the other end, they could say, "fuck it...NToV is a CSR-free zone, you ingrates" and we'd deal with that, too.

But don't conflate a playstyle preference with knowledge of the zone. They're two different issues completely. On the latter, you're miles ahead. On the former, opinions will differ (and be largely irrelevant once any changes that come out of this are codified).

[Pint]

Originally Posted by Pan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Pint, there's no doubt that you guys are far more experienced with the mechanics of those zones and the problems that they create. And our input will be limited and based on MUCH less experience than yours. I'm under no illusions that way.

And I think we all share the goal and values of reducing the sock and having a sane raid environment.

And, for the record, I'm not necessarily against the idea of "train pulling" if that's how it shakes out.

On some level, I don't really care what the ruleset ends up being as long as it's:
1) communicated
2) enforced
3) enforced consistently

We can adapt our playstyle to whatever the owners of the p99 box dictate.

That said, part of your advocacy is based on the playstyle that you've adopted. You state:

It's probably worth acknowledging that VP trash repops in 6 minutes and tov takes 72 minutes. I also don't want to gloss over the fact that your guilds would be happy to take a few hours to kill 1 dragon and find that rewarding, it would be rewarding and fun. The problem is that the larger guilds probably wouldn't be patient enough to wait you out and additionally depending on the dragon your multi hour long pursuit puts you in the way of the other 14 potential dragons.

Not wanting to be patient on your part is a choice. Should I advocate patience in the meeting, that's my choice - and has nothing to do with my understanding of the intricacies of the pulls and mechanics there. But you are NOT, logically, ethically, conceptually, or any other -lly more right than I in your position. They're just different. And that's part of the reason for the discussion.

Hypothetically, they could say "fuck it" and decide to tether the nameds in NToV and delete the accounts of trainers. And we'd (collectively) deal with it. Or, on the other end, they could say, "fuck it...NToV is a CSR-free zone, you ingrates" and we'd deal with that, too.

But don't conflate a playstyle preference with knowledge of the zone. They're two different issues completely. On the latter, you're miles ahead. On the former, opinions will differ (and be largely irrelevant once any changes that come out of this are codified).

Cloki man, that is too many words to say 2 very basic things, trim it down for us in the future please! Your point about communication and enforcement +1'd. Your point about patience is noted but II have to be realistic when I approach these things, if a dragon pops at 3am on Sunday and my guys can kill it in 20 minutes and get back to sleep then all of the high minded moralistic reasoning in the world isn't going to convince them to spend an extra 2 hours to accomplish the end goal.

[Pint]

You guys are still not approaching the issues, you all know what's going to happen tmrw when 8 people sit down to discuss all of these issues without any real pre negotiations to understand each others issues and helping each other understand what everyone else is and isn't missing. At this point youre going to start off with train pulling and never get past that discussion, 3 hrs into that argument we're going to end up with some patchwork fix that hasn't been thought through or no fix at all.