Want to Start a Rogue and Just want to Make Sure I Understand a Couple Things

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

like talkin to a wall

Indeed! You know STR is easy to cap, and you still want to argue STR for no apparent reason.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We are in agreement then. As you say, 43 STR isn't a huge deal. 25 STR is a smaller number, so the same logic applies.

Because of this, STA is the better starting stat. 43 STR isn't a huge deal, and STR is easy to cap in Velious. You only need 120 STR to cap STR with Maniacal Strength + Focus of Spirit. With Rogue Epic and Thick Banded Belt or Gauntlets of Potence, you are already at 35/60 STR needed to hit 120 STR on a gnome Rogue. It is easy to find a few other pieces to get the remaining 25 STR.

We haven’t agreed on anything. Str is better, regardless of which caps first. Has better short term benefits. Sta is a magelo benefit for rogues.

Again, you’re not cunning with your logic. Stop trying to be.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We haven’t agreed on anything. Str is better, regardless of which caps first. Has better short term benefits.

Again, you’re not cunning with your logic. Stop trying to be.

It's not being cunning, it is basic math. You agree 43 STR isn't a big deal, which means you agree 25 STR isn't a big deal. There's no cunning needed here. You agree that 43 > 25, and both numbers aren't a big deal.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's not being cunning, it is basic math. You agree 43 STR isn't a big deal, which means you agree 25 STR isn't a big deal. There's no cunning needed here. You agree that 43 > 25, and both numbers aren't a big deal.

We don’t agree that str is less beneficial than sta, even if sta caps sooner. So whatever you else think we agree or don’t agree on is irrelevant.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We don’t agree that str is less beneficial than sta, even if sta caps sooner. So whatever you else think we agree or don’t agree on is irrelevant.

Then you would try to persuade OP that Barbarian is the better choice over Gnome, because you are saying 43 STR is a big deal. You can't have it both ways.

If you say fashion > stats, you are agreeing that having lower stats is not going to be a problem for OP.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Then you would try to persuade OP that Barbarian is the better choice over Gnome, because you are saying 43 STR is a big deal. You can't have it both ways.

If you say fashion > stats, you are agreeing that having lower stats are not going to be a problem for OP.

Never said 43 str was a big deal. Nor did I recommend barbarian.

I’m sorry, you have no logic.

[Toxigen]

Just being able to carry more weight alone makes STR the better choice for the leveling path...nevermind 99% of the time this char will be logged in without DSM's "muh pocket 60 shaman STR buffs"

such a stupid fucking argument - anyone needing to ask the question here is obviously in the general play capacity (not hardcore raider) where STR is the only choice

but go ahead on for another 50 pages why a piddly amount more HP for this leveling rogue is better

[fortior]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It also doesn't matter if a Rogue has 300 STR or 355 STR[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Rogues can fit Maniacal Strength into a competitive raid situation just fine. I have buffed Maniacal Strength plenty of times on top competitive targets. I am not sure what raid scenario you are talking about that doesn't have a Shaman buffing. I am not sure what solo/group scenario you are talking about that needs 255 STR for a Rogue to do good DPS.

Any time-sensitive encounter like mobs that are instantly FTE'd on spawn, or encounters where the available shamans have better things to do than buffing. An example would be ST golems. I note that you didn't comment on the grouping aspect so I'm assuming you just conceded it. Anyway, since you are a shaman player, it's to be expected that you aren't aware that there can be situations in which you don't have shaman buffs as a rogue.

As a rogue, your job is dealing damage while not getting low hp aggro. In order to do this, you need a little bit of hp, lots of resists, and depending on the encounter (some VP dragons), a little to lots of healing/cures/runes/worts. Being reliant on stat buffs to deal damage is introducing a point of failure into your primary job. It's alright for guild bots, but if you're a serious rogue you have 255 str unbuffed, or you have a primal. No exceptions.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just being able to carry more weight alone makes STR the better choice for the leveling path...nevermind 99% of the time this char will be logged in without DSM's "muh pocket 60 shaman STR buffs"

It's easy to get enough STR to carry everything you need with 20k, plus you can buy cheap WR bags.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...6&postcount=18

Gnome Rogues can easily hit 160+ STR without buffs in EC gear, which is a lot of carrying capacity already, especially with WR bags.

Rogues typically group while leveling, so getting STR buffs, ports to a merchant, etc. are not going to be difficult for a grouping Rogue.

Originally Posted by fortior [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Any time-sensitive encounter like mobs that are instantly FTE'd on spawn, or encounters where the available shamans have better things to do than buffing. An example would be ST golems. I note that you didn't comment on the grouping aspect so I'm assuming you just conceded it. Anyway, since you are a shaman player, it's to be expected that you aren't aware that there can be situations in which you don't have shaman buffs as a rogue.

As a rogue, your job is dealing damage while not getting low hp aggro. In order to do this, you need a little bit of hp, lots of resists, and depending on the encounter (some VP dragons), a little to lots of healing/cures/runes/worts. Being reliant on stat buffs to deal damage is introducing a point of failure into your primary job. It's alright for guild bots, but if you're a serious rogue you have 255 str unbuffed, or you have a primal. No exceptions.

I am not sure why you think buffing is hard in raids. I have contested ST golems plenty of times, and had time to buff people. We also got the kill. Pretending that raid buffing is difficult is not a good argument.

What concession about grouping are you talking about? I already said you don't need 255 STR in a group or solo to DPS well. I am not sure where you got the idea I conceded, or that 255 STR is going to massively benefit your group/solo experience.

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Never said 43 str was a big deal.

Then you agree with me lol. You agree 25 STR isn't a big deal.

[fortior]

Shamans aren't very good grouping partners while leveling, and they only get focus of spirit at 60. At 39, when shamans become a little less awful to group with due to the introduction of Venom of the Snake and Canni 2, they can buff strength by a whopping 34. Not relying on buffs to deal max damage (which, again, is your job) means one less point of failure.