sk starting points - Page 12

DeathsSilkyMist · #1 08-09-2023, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DSM is just clearly not intellectually qualified to be dealing with this.

What a shame because he's gonna keep flooding the forum with bad advice stated confidently.

Continuing to double down on your tantrum simply makes you look silly, and continues to show you have conceded that you were wrong. I wouldn't advise you continue to make yourself look bad like this.

If you think I am incorrect, you need to provide more than a temper tantrum.

I have provided in-game evidence here: https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=105 . Other people can do the same if they think they can prove that my data isn't correct for whatever reason.

I really do hope someone can provide something, so we can discuss it. I won't hold my breath, however. Posters like Troxx will simply keep asking other people to provide evidence for the points they are making. That isn't how this works. If you make a claim, you need to provide the evidence.

Troxx has already been proven wrong on this claim about the damage formulas:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"Max hits are gonna happen all the damn time when you parse vs a level 5 mob."

I only got 11 max hits out of 496 hits. The data is directly contradicting his statement. He needs to explain himself, and show his work on how he is coming to these kinds of conclusions.

Troxx · #2 08-09-2023, 02:43 PM

Your abysmal rate of max hits indicates Mr Turtle has extraordinarily high ac. That, along with level, is a but one component of the equation. I get a much higher percentage of max hits hunting dark blues deep in the bowels of seb than you got on Mr Turtle. This mob is well known to be an anomaly that doesn’t follow the rules.

Mr Turtle is a great target for comparing weapon setup vs weapon setup dps for sure. He is not an ideal target for parsing the functional difference 20 str will net you. Looking at it in reverse, he also would not be a good target for parsing the benefits of higher scaling armor class values on a tank in defensive parses. Your results ain’t gonna translate to how well 100-300 ac will help you tanking high level dark blue mobs or Avatar of War. The level gap is too large.

Go find a dark blue con mob. The closer you can get to your level without making the completion of the parse/test super annoying or time consuming the better.

Whatever the results of your test, it will be a much more valid point to use as a starting point for then discussing the relative value of a little bit more total mana vs higher permanent damage output and better weight carrying capacity on a low strength race.

I applaud your effort man. I do. Re-doing your test on an appropriate target will take a fraction of the time you are spending typing replies in this thread.

DeathsSilkyMist · #3 08-09-2023, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your abysmal rate of max hits indicates Mr Turtle has extraordinarily high ac. That, along with level, is a one component of the equation.

Mr Turtle is a great target for comparing weapon setup vs weapon setup dps for sure. He is not an ideal target for parsing the functional difference 20 str will net you.

Go find a dark blue con mob. The closer you can get to your level without making the completion of the parse/test super annoying or time consuming the better.

Whatever the results of your test, it will be a much more valid point to use as a starting point for then discussing the relative value of a little bit more total mana vs higher permanent damage output and better weight carrying capacity on a low strength race.

I applaud your effort man. I do. Re-doing your test on an appropriate target will take a fraction of the time you are spending typing replies in this thread.

No. You need to provide the formulas you are using, and/or an example video. You cannot simply keep asking other people to prove your points for you, while claiming all data is invalid. This is extremely poor behavior.

The reason why you made this mistake about how max hits work is because you do not understand the damage formulas. You clearly are not confident in your theory. If you were, you would simply provide the formulas and plug in the data. As you said earlier: "This is pretty basic NerdQuest knowledge man."

Here is my data so far: https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=105

Lune · #4 08-09-2023, 03:11 PM

^ as you said, nevermind that it's going to take more than a few rounds to get good data, not one round for each scenario

DeathsSilkyMist · #5 08-09-2023, 03:17 PM

I have data from all the rats I killed in PoM rat maze to get to 60. These are mid to high level 40s. As per usual, I am providing data, you are providing nothing but a request for me to prove your points.

269 high damage hits total
6623 total hits

Percent chance to get a high damage hit: 4%. This is using Innoruuk's Curse and 54% haste.

As you can see, this isn't a large difference between the small sample size I provided with Corudoth, and the large sample size I provided just now.

Max hit is not significantly impacted by whichever nonsensical formula you are using.

You need to show us the formulas you are using, so we can see where you are going wrong, and we can fix your understanding.

You still haven't shown why the DPS differences will be different.

You haven't even shown how much different they will be. If the difference is a mere 5% of 3 DPS, it isn't going to net you more kills per hour.

Troxx · #6 08-09-2023, 03:25 PM

11/469 = 2.217%
269/6623 = 4.061% (not 1% - you’re off by a factor of 4x here)

How can you fail at the most basic part of the math. Divide 269 by 6623 in your calculator. The answer is not 0.01 (1%). It is 0.04061603502….

?????

Even then the difference between your Mr Turtle max hits and the amalgamation of all dem fights max hits - there’s an 83.1% difference man. One set of parses are nearly double the max hit rate compared to the other.

Diving deeper:

Did you isolate slashes or are your spams/bashes included?
Were you the same level in all of these fights or are these fights from multiple levels while you pushed to 60?
Were you always, 100% buffed exactly the same with no variance whatsoever?
Were you actually using the same exact weapon 100% of the time? Or were you swapping in epic for proc or sometimes going sword and board?

As this data was gathered from a protracted xp grind, I imagine quite a lot of variables fluctuated at times.

If anything, you’re showing less consistency than you were before.

DeathsSilkyMist · #7 08-09-2023, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

11/469 = 2.217%
269/6623 = 4.061% (not 1% - you’re off by a factor of 4x here)

Difference between your Mr Turtle max hits and the amalgamation of all dem fights max hits - there’s an 83.1% difference man.

Did you isolate slashes or are your spams/bashes included? Were you the same level in all of these fights or are these fights from multiple levels while you pushed to 60? Were you always, 100% buffed exactly the same with no variance whatsoever?

If anything, you’re showing less consistency than you were before.

You are correct I did type in the calculation wrong for 269/6623 into my calculator. That was my fault. Unlike yourself, I am able to admit mistakes, and provide proof for my claims.

A difference between 2% max hits and 4% max hits is still not a large leap, same with the difference between 1% and 2%. Because my sample size is smaller on the turtle, it is difficult to say whether or not this discrepancy is simply due to averages. I have 200 kills represented in that data. That means the larger data sample is much closer to a true average.

You still refuse to explain how a difference in 2% max hits and 4% max hits would increase the DPS difference between 160 STR and 180 STR by a significant amount, which is the key point here.

Please post your formulas. We should be able to see it if you plug in whatever numbers you are using.

Troxx · #8 08-09-2023, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A difference between 2% max hits and 4% max hits is still not a large.

Umm the difference between 2.217 and 4.062 is off by a factor of exactly 83.175%

That’s a large difference and that only captures DI 20. There are 19 other DIs that will be similarly skewed. That’s not a small difference. It furthermore proves the point that Mr Turtle is an anomaly and not at all reflective of performance vs level appropriate “normal” mobs … much less normal mobs closer to your level.

Go repeat your Mr Turtle experiment on the same exact solid blue con xp mob with and without 20 extra strength.

We can begin a meaningful discussion of the findings as it relates to having a little bit higher total mana pool vs the damage differences and the ability to carry more weight on a low str race that is hated by vendors and bankers throughout Norrath.

Bonus points if you drop some gear and test 140 vs 160 or 150 vs 170 or 160 vs 180 str values.

DeathsSilkyMist · #9 08-09-2023, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Umm the difference between 2.217 and 4.062 is off by a favor of exactly 83.175%

That’s a large difference and that only captures DI 20. There are 19 other DIs that will be similarly skewed. That’s not a small difference. It furthermore proves the point that Mr Turtle is an anomaly and not at all reflective of performance vs level appropriate “normal” mobs … much less normal mobs closer to your level.

Go repeat your Mr Turtle experiment on the same exact solid blue con xp mob with and without 20 extra strength.

We can begin a meaningful discussion of the findings as it relates to having a little bit higher total mana pool vs the damage differences and the ability to carry more weight on a low str race that is hated by vendors and bankers throughout Norrath.

Bonus points if you drop some gear and test 140 vs 160 or 150 vs 170 or 160 vs 180 str values.

Here's the thing. I provided plenty of evidence for you to work with. I gave you turtle data with logs and video evidence, and I gave you 200 kills worth of log data for dark blues.

You haven't explained AT ALL how the DPS difference between 210 STR and 231 STR will increase instead of decrease when taking into account different mitigation values. You haven't even shown how much that difference is. If it's a difference of 0.1 DPS, you aren't getting more kills per hour while leveling.

I am not going to keep responding to you when you fail to do anything but constantly repeat "provide data for my claims".

For those interested, my data is here:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=105 and https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=138 .

Please come back when you can provide anything approaching a salient point, or data for your claims, or the formulas you are using. You just keep posting the same nonsense over and over, and it is getting tiring.

Troxx · #10 08-09-2023, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Please come back when you can provide anything.

I’m actually offering to help.