Lord Nagafen & Lady Vox status (post 52 restriction)

[choklo]

I agree with Loke's post. "It's all the same, it's only the names that change." People come and go and the guild's names change. The fact remains, if you're not in the top 2 raiding guilds, you won't experience the end game on p1999.

[Tiggles]

Originally Posted by Loke [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You guys act like TMO and TR have been the top guilds since the server inception. New guilds (EXAMPLE: TMO) pop up all the time to challenge the status quo.

Anyone who has played on this server long enough knows that guilds rise and fall. While IB probably held the crown the longest, even we almost fell apart late last fall when the guild splintered. I mean, we had trouble fielding more than 20 man raids for well over a month. While it is generally two or three guilds competing, and a fair amount of the players have remained the same, there is always room for new guilds to enter the fray.

When I started here it was Transcendence and IB on top. Then for a few months there were actually 7 guilds that competed for mobs (IB, Trans, GC, Divinity, Remedy, In Virtue, and Fish Bait). While it is true that IB got the vast majority of mobs during this time, to say that there was no competitive raiding is a huge fallacy. Some of my fondest moments on this server were doing small group (less than 12 people) planar raids while I was in IV competing against guilds like GC, Fish Bait and Trans.

I mean, we've had at least 3 different top guilds on this server since I've played here (IB -> DA -> TR) and one could make a strong argument to include TMO in that list, at least for a short period (in fact, this is still on going).

You make it sound like there is like one group of players that has dominated this server since it's inception, and that simply isn't true. Of the current membership of TR, I'd bet less than 25% ever wore an IB tag. I mean that is a very rough number, but to say that 75% of the current top guild are new players from the previous top guild just illustrates that this server does have a dynamic raiding scene and is not blocked by barriers of entry to every player on the server.

If you want to play 6 hours a week and expect to get dragons, kick rocks. However, both TR and TMO are made up of a number of players that really don't play that much. I mean, at 60, unless you're really into farming, you pretty much only log on when there is something to kill or you want to play an alt. So we can field 35 man raids (with an 80-90 player member base), that is less than 50% turn out. Yea, we have people with 70 and 80% attendance rates, but the vast majority of the guild hovers around the 40% mark - which isn't really that much considering the time even casual players put into this game.

I'm sorry the raid scene doesn't cater to the casual players, but it never has.. not once in the 12 year history of this game. I don't think it is going to change anytime soon.

Good post Loke, I agree 100%

Originally Posted by choklo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I agree with Loke's post. "It's all the same, it's only the names that change." People come and go and the guild's names change. The fact remains, if you're not in the top 2 raiding guilds, you won't experience the end game on p1999.

If you don't put in the time to gear up/log on for raids or don't associate with other like minded people then yes you will not see end game. This is neither TMOs or TRs problem. Vox stays up for hours if not days if you want to kill a dragon get your friends and go for it. Faydedar and VS are both easy mobs that you can do with 25+ players 35+ if your lower lvl, and you have every right to try them, its not like the secret of when they spawn is unknown to you.

The fact at hand is you don't want to put in the time so you will never see endgame. So either join a guild or make a guild and don't try and paint TMO/TR as the bad guys here because you are not motivated to slay dragons.

[choklo]

I don't think Fay, VS, or Vox are end game mobs at this point. I've killed all three before. I'm level 60, geared(hate, non dragon kunark), and guilded. I prefer not to join TR and TMO. Many guilds like taken, BDA, VD, and others could take down trak and naggy- with friends or even as a guild for the most part. The problem is the poopsocking mentality of the two top raiding guilds. It's ugly right now and likely won't get any better. Are you suggesting a third guild join the cluster fark?

[Loke]

Originally Posted by choklo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't think Fay, VS, or Vox are end game mobs at this point. I've killed all three before. I'm level 60, geared(hate, non dragon kunark), and guilded. I prefer not to join TR and TMO. Many guilds like taken, BDA, VD, and others could take down trak and naggy- with friends or even as a guild for the most part. The problem is the poopsocking mentality of the two top raiding guilds. It's ugly right now and likely won't get any better. Are you suggesting a third guild join the cluster fark?

It is the nature of the beast man. In every facet of life, to expect competitive, motivated individuals put aside what they feel is in their best interest in favor of what is in your best interest is unrealistic. Maybe that is selfish, but that regard I guess we live in a selfish world. Just like the bums you pass on the street asking for money, the idea of giving handouts to people who haven't worked to earn it themselves I a generally unappealing proposition to most people. I'm not saying you're a bum, it was just a convenient analogy - what I am saying is that unless you put in the same amount of time and effort as the people in TMO and TR, it isn't realistic to expect to reap the same rewards they do.

I'm sure I'll get a bunch of "wow, this is just a video game" replies, but I tend to apply that same line of reasoning to every aspect of life, video game or not. If you want something that someone else also wants - you need to work harder and get a competitive edge to beat them out, otherwise you're going to get left in the dust.

On a similar topic - I have no problem with casual players who are happy with their casual status. It isn't for me to judge how other people enjoy the game. I don't think I'm better than anyone (well, gear/ability wise I do, but not in a general sense) because I put more time and effort in. If they draw the same enjoyment casually leveling their character up as I do from killing raid mobs, who am I to say they are wrong? There are a lot of guilds that casually raid and are more about the guild community than they are about the competition - guilds like VD and BDA. I have a ton of respect for those guilds and think some of the most dedicated and legit players I have ever met grace their ranks. However, that respect I have for them still doesn't mean I'm going to roll over and hand them any mobs - although I definitely welcome any and all competition [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

I'll say this right up front so there is no confusion. This game has always mostly been about the people who play more get more. Putting more time in means more plat, geared alts, phat lewtz. Always has always will. There is nothing wrong with getting or wanting loot, with killing raid targets and seeing your guild kick ass or improve. No one is expected to do hand-outs and be charity givers and help every other guild gear up, you form guilds to do bigger things and you look out for your guild first. That being said...

The fact at hand is you don't want to put in the time so you will never see endgame. So either join a guild or make a guild and don't try and paint TMO/TR as the bad guys here because you are not motivated to slay dragons.

There is so much wrong with this I don't know where to begin. But to say people

are not motivated to slay dragons.

is idiocy. Define motivated. Perhaps they are not motivated to do what you do, does that mean they are not motivated to kill dragons or not motivated to act like selfish jackasses?

Loke is a reasonable fellow but I think what he says is skewed. I agree with some of what you say such as

unless you put in the same amount of time and effort as the people in TMO and TR, it isn't realistic to expect to reap the same rewards they do.

because that is how it always was and is in game. It isn't a charity, and you shouldn't be expected to. But don't try justifying anything you do by comparing it to real life. Because in real life we have checks and balances, laws and regulations for those how do you say,

competitive, motivated individuals

. While the following may be true to some degree

In every facet of life, to expect competitive, motivated individuals put aside what they feel is in their best interest in favor of what is in your best interest is unrealistic.

if none of the rich and wealthy had a sense of social responsibility society would break down. Those same individuals would have us all living in poverty and being their society and community while they made mad bank and society broke down and the country went to shit and and...oh wait. Your stance is both perfectly reasonable and at the same completely ignorant and downright insulting.

If they draw the same enjoyment casually leveling their character up as I do from killing raid mobs, who am I to say they are wrong?

is insulting. The word competition is another word that has twisted meaning here and you misue like 'motivated'. Because to 'compete' here means a whole lot more then having skilled dedicated players capable of killing a mob. Your 'competition' involves sitting at a spawn for days on end at the nicest. At the worst you're training and petitioning and lying cheating stealing whatever it takes to get what you want. To say others don't have the same dedication or will to compete is insulting. It's the lack of will to stoop to that level. Look at what your form of 'competition' has come to here. If you are willing to sit at a mob for 3 days well then sure I suppose you can use the word 'deserve'. To also say these others guilds are more about the guild community is also insulting, as if we are here to serve your community and give you places to sell your dragon loot. We aren't here to keep your fucking community while you kill everything for you and your alts. To 'compete' people would need to be on call 24/7 for a game, sit in one spot for days, train other guilds, steal pulls, petition GMS every spawn, and be a key ingredient in coming up with some idiotic system that curries to anarchy. The guilds who choose not to do that aren't shying away from 'competition'. They're choosing not to go at this game like you do. 'Competition' here is twisted and warped. People do whatever it takes to stay 'on top' but what does that even mean here? The end justifies the means? Do you mean we aren't willing to 'compete' when we choose not to gank another guilds' target?

You are correct in that you shouldn't have to do 'hand-outs' but don't think you are the few who are actually are 'competitive.' Because whenever I have had my guild in position having won the race in the true nature of competition it turns out to be meaningless because the word here has no meaning. This is what 'competition' here is and to say we are not 'competitive' because we choose not to act like this is moronic.

This is what I have seen as 'competition' here on this server.

P99 'competition'



Don't assume because other people don't play like you they're just drawing enjoyment from casually leveling characters as you do from killing raid mobs. Your patronizing bullshit makes me sick with your

ton of respect

for those dedicated and legit players. The same players you respect so much you make sure those people get absolutely no chance at anything in the raid scene by doing whatever it takes to roll over them and fuck them in the ass? Spare me your inane drivel and quit fucking patronizing the people who choose not to partake in the behavior that has been exhibited by what you call 'competition' on this server in the 'end-game' here. You kill the mobs, grats you. You put the time in you get the loot more power to you. No one can fault you or judge you. But unlike live this is the only 'community' left. There aren't 20 other servers for people to spread out on. There is but one. On live people left those servers where guilds behaved like they do here. And while you disregard everyone else as being lazy, non-competitive' casual community building slackers and people feed their greed with no consideration for the 'community' there will be consequences. I don't know what will happen but I doubt 600 people will be in TR or whatever guild it happens to be. I don't know if it ends up just being one guild and that is all as everyone else tires of not being able to enjoy the server. If you really wanted 'competition' when another guild stepped up you would let them have their chances instead of rolling in and sniping a mob from them. If you wanted the server to thrive and build, that is. If you want to encourage 12 year old wow players to come here and join your guild for 4 months until they're bored, please continue. But just like in that video, the people who get there first don't win the 'competition'. Instead the people who come in later just abandon courtesy and decency because all the give a shit about are themselves. And since you aren't forced to behave like fucking humans here you think you are the better 'competitors'? You sit there with your smugness and say you appreciate and respect and all that bullshit the guilds who are here casually as long as they don't dare think they can have a shot at anything on this server. And no matter what you spew from that hole in your face you call a suck your actions speak oh so louder. The instant they might get some of what you think is YOUR loot we see where things really stand.

P99 'competition'

Every single time I have encountered your guilds at a target it has gone the same. Be it at efreeti, Tranix, myconid king, Traks lair, Fearplane, hateplane, nagafen, sky, you name it I have witnessed the same behavior. Either you send in bards to sit in our raid and charm mobs as they spawn in hateplane, or wait till someone pulls fire giants in front of Tranix then run up and snipe him. Wait for a guild to clear fear and run in and kill Tranix. Wait for them to clear isle 3 and then pull Gorgalosk before they finish counting their keys and end their raid because they can't key up people now. Train giants and whatever else in solb to wipe a naggy attempt because you don't want the guild that got there first getting your loot. Invis by people camping the king and sit on the fort and claim it is now yours due to server rules. If that fails petition and train. Every single time there has been something wanted I have witnessed a complete and utter lack of respect and 'competition'. You've always been someone I could talk to and argue with or disagree with but to hell with this patronizing bullshit. You ought to think about what happens when there is one guild and no one else, oh how much fun that will be. Log onto a server with 120 people and either go to your raid or sit in ec tunnel with the rest of the server. Will you still feel so dedicated and competitive then? Your actions aren't in the nature of 'competition', your actions are killing every thing about competition. When Divinity no longer raids, when BDA, VD, Taken and any other guilds no longer raid what will you have then for your community? If you wanted competition you would have been behaving differently, and the server history speaks for itself. Those on top do whatever it takes to ensure not that there isn't 'competition' but to make it impossible for any real 'competition' to take place. All I hear is talk and I have seen absolutely nothing in the form of real actions in game. Variance to help competition only it variances itself to spawn when everyone in a 'casual' guild logs to sleep or work. There is no 'competition' and all the talk about wanting it is bullshit. Transparent bullshit. Because if you gave a rats ass about competition or the community there would be some kind of agreement worked out to where the hardcore raiders and people who put more time in would get more and true competition actually existed and at the same time people in the more normal casual guilds would still have a chance. You want to be absolutely fair? Either do that or get rid of the rules. Whomever gets the kill gets the win. Trains, ksing, you name it are all legal. The fact you sit behind the rules we have now and claim that you act civilized is a farce. They are just there to make you feel justified with how you behave to others. You want absolute fairness? Fuck FTE and all that jazz on raid targets. Compete all out, no holds barred. Hell make raid areas PVP flagged. You all act like animals anyway who want true competition? Go with kill or be killed then and quit hiding behind the facade of 'competition' we have now.
And ffs get rid of variance. I am sick of logging in and yet another mob has died 'in window' to the same people who don't work or sleep. Another facade. Go back to classic.

P99 'competition'

[Skope]

They say they want competition, but when they create their own competition (poopsocking) then they complain that they're competing. Then they want to convince everyone that the rules are the problem! not the shitty attitudes, but the rules. Now everything is dandy because they're seeing their prime target again, but last week when everything was exactly the same there were some serious problems that needed fixing. Basically you have a bunch of tryhards who never got their fix on live (or never raided at all) and spend their entire time on P99. When they see competition they demonize the competing guild and each attempts to stoop to lower levels in order to win out, but... you know... they want competition. right? wait... no, they don't. when they weren't competing everything was fine, and now that they are you see trolling, training, cheating and poopsocking.

Want to raid? quit your job, abandon your children and invest in diapers, because though that it wasn't like this on live (or anywhere near it), it's reality here on P99. I'm not buying the "you're not trying hard enough" crap, because the time invested then was nowhere near the time required here. It's something that the players and staff created here in order to dwindle and selectively pick out the raiding guilds and tiers based on who can put in an obscene amount of time. Anyway...

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Harrison]

lol these mongoloids still think poopsocking is competing

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by Skope [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Want to raid? quit your job, abandon your children and invest in diapers, because though that it wasn't like this on live (or anywhere near it), it's reality here on P99. I'm not buying the "you're not trying hard enough" crap, because the time invested then was nowhere near the time required here. It's something that the players and staff created here in order to dwindle and selectively pick out the raiding guilds and tiers based on who can put in an obscene amount of time. Anyway...

^^ truth

Here is the reality of the P99 raid scene for the rest of us. A post I made on my guild's forums in response to plans to hang out in KC for a possible VS attempt if he spawned:

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

One of the responses, that sums up the situation quite nicely:

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Thanks for crankin' it up to 11 and making raiding such srs business on an emu server, effectively turning it into a 2nd job (or 1st job in most cases), guys! :P

[Tiggles]

Originally Posted by h0tr0d (shaere) [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'll say this right up front so there is no confusion. This game has always mostly been about the people who play more get more. Putting more time in means more plat, geared alts, phat lewtz. Always has always will. There is nothing wrong with getting or wanting loot, with killing raid targets and seeing your guild kick ass or improve. No one is expected to do hand-outs and be charity givers and help every other guild gear up, you form guilds to do bigger things and you look out for your guild first. That being said...




There is so much wrong with this I don't know where to begin. But to say people is idiocy. Define motivated. Perhaps they are not motivated to do what you do, does that mean they are not motivated to kill dragons or not motivated to act like selfish jackasses?

Loke is a reasonable fellow but I think what he says is skewed. I agree with some of what you say such as because that is how it always was and is in game. It isn't a charity, and you shouldn't be expected to. But don't try justifying anything you do by comparing it to real life. Because in real life we have checks and balances, laws and regulations for those how do you say, . While the following may be true to some degree if none of the rich and wealthy had a sense of social responsibility society would break down. Those same individuals would have us all living in poverty and being their society and community while they made mad bank and society broke down and the country went to shit and and...oh wait. Your stance is both perfectly reasonable and at the same completely ignorant and downright insulting. is insulting. The word competition is another word that has twisted meaning here and you misue like 'motivated'. Because to 'compete' here means a whole lot more then having skilled dedicated players capable of killing a mob. Your 'competition' involves sitting at a spawn for days on end at the nicest. At the worst you're training and petitioning and lying cheating stealing whatever it takes to get what you want. To say others don't have the same dedication or will to compete is insulting. It's the lack of will to stoop to that level. Look at what your form of 'competition' has come to here. If you are willing to sit at a mob for 3 days well then sure I suppose you can use the word 'deserve'. To also say these others guilds are more about the guild community is also insulting, as if we are here to serve your community and give you places to sell your dragon loot. We aren't here to keep your fucking community while you kill everything for you and your alts. To 'compete' people would need to be on call 24/7 for a game, sit in one spot for days, train other guilds, steal pulls, petition GMS every spawn, and be a key ingredient in coming up with some idiotic system that curries to anarchy. The guilds who choose not to do that aren't shying away from 'competition'. They're choosing not to go at this game like you do. 'Competition' here is twisted and warped. People do whatever it takes to stay 'on top' but what does that even mean here? The end justifies the means? Do you mean we aren't willing to 'compete' when we choose not to gank another guilds' target?

You are correct in that you shouldn't have to do 'hand-outs' but don't think you are the few who are actually are 'competitive.' Because whenever I have had my guild in position having won the race in the true nature of competition it turns out to be meaningless because the word here has no meaning. This is what 'competition' here is and to say we are not 'competitive' because we choose not to act like this is moronic.

This is what I have seen as 'competition' here on this server.

P99 'competition'



Don't assume because other people don't play like you they're just drawing enjoyment from casually leveling characters as you do from killing raid mobs. Your patronizing bullshit makes me sick with your for those dedicated and legit players. The same players you respect so much you make sure those people get absolutely no chance at anything in the raid scene by doing whatever it takes to roll over them and fuck them in the ass? Spare me your inane drivel and quit fucking patronizing the people who choose not to partake in the behavior that has been exhibited by what you call 'competition' on this server in the 'end-game' here. You kill the mobs, grats you. You put the time in you get the loot more power to you. No one can fault you or judge you. But unlike live this is the only 'community' left. There aren't 20 other servers for people to spread out on. There is but one. On live people left those servers where guilds behaved like they do here. And while you disregard everyone else as being lazy, non-competitive' casual community building slackers and people feed their greed with no consideration for the 'community' there will be consequences. I don't know what will happen but I doubt 600 people will be in TR or whatever guild it happens to be. I don't know if it ends up just being one guild and that is all as everyone else tires of not being able to enjoy the server. If you really wanted 'competition' when another guild stepped up you would let them have their chances instead of rolling in and sniping a mob from them. If you wanted the server to thrive and build, that is. If you want to encourage 12 year old wow players to come here and join your guild for 4 months until they're bored, please continue. But just like in that video, the people who get there first don't win the 'competition'. Instead the people who come in later just abandon courtesy and decency because all the give a shit about are themselves. And since you aren't forced to behave like fucking humans here you think you are the better 'competitors'? You sit there with your smugness and say you appreciate and respect and all that bullshit the guilds who are here casually as long as they don't dare think they can have a shot at anything on this server. And no matter what you spew from that hole in your face you call a suck your actions speak oh so louder. The instant they might get some of what you think is YOUR loot we see where things really stand.

P99 'competition'

Every single time I have encountered your guilds at a target it has gone the same. Be it at efreeti, Tranix, myconid king, Traks lair, Fearplane, hateplane, nagafen, sky, you name it I have witnessed the same behavior. Either you send in bards to sit in our raid and charm mobs as they spawn in hateplane, or wait till someone pulls fire giants in front of Tranix then run up and snipe him. Wait for a guild to clear fear and run in and kill Tranix. Wait for them to clear isle 3 and then pull Gorgalosk before they finish counting their keys and end their raid because they can't key up people now. Train giants and whatever else in solb to wipe a naggy attempt because you don't want the guild that got there first getting your loot. Invis by people camping the king and sit on the fort and claim it is now yours due to server rules. If that fails petition and train. Every single time there has been something wanted I have witnessed a complete and utter lack of respect and 'competition'. You've always been someone I could talk to and argue with or disagree with but to hell with this patronizing bullshit. You ought to think about what happens when there is one guild and no one else, oh how much fun that will be. Log onto a server with 120 people and either go to your raid or sit in ec tunnel with the rest of the server. Will you still feel so dedicated and competitive then? Your actions aren't in the nature of 'competition', your actions are killing every thing about competition. When Divinity no longer raids, when BDA, VD, Taken and any other guilds no longer raid what will you have then for your community? If you wanted competition you would have been behaving differently, and the server history speaks for itself. Those on top do whatever it takes to ensure not that there isn't 'competition' but to make it impossible for any real 'competition' to take place. All I hear is talk and I have seen absolutely nothing in the form of real actions in game. Variance to help competition only it variances itself to spawn when everyone in a 'casual' guild logs to sleep or work. There is no 'competition' and all the talk about wanting it is bullshit. Transparent bullshit. Because if you gave a rats ass about competition or the community there would be some kind of agreement worked out to where the hardcore raiders and people who put more time in would get more and true competition actually existed and at the same time people in the more normal casual guilds would still have a chance. You want to be absolutely fair? Either do that or get rid of the rules. Whomever gets the kill gets the win. Trains, ksing, you name it are all legal. The fact you sit behind the rules we have now and claim that you act civilized is a farce. They are just there to make you feel justified with how you behave to others. You want absolute fairness? Fuck FTE and all that jazz on raid targets. Compete all out, no holds barred. Hell make raid areas PVP flagged. You all act like animals anyway who want true competition? Go with kill or be killed then and quit hiding behind the facade of 'competition' we have now.
And ffs get rid of variance. I am sick of logging in and yet another mob has died 'in window' to the same people who don't work or sleep. Another facade. Go back to classic.

P99 'competition'

I didn't read ANY of this.


Also move this thread to RnF please

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by Tiggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I didn't read ANY of this.

It's a shame you didn't. It's every bit as detailed, thorough, and insightful as Loke's was. I thought they made pretty good bookends to each perspective of the raiding scene.