Is Seal Team going to wake the sleeper?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Tethler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nah, I'm not being inconsistent. The devs and the players are two separate groups with two separate goals. They don't have to follow the same logic.

Waking the sleeper is 100% optional.

The server could finish the timeline and roll into blue (or whatever ends up happening) with a still sleeping Kerafyrm. There is nothing that requires this event to take place.

You are being inconsistent. If you believe legacy items should be removed at all, you are of the same mind as the Developers. You cannot be mad when it happens.

[Tethler]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are being inconsistent. If you believe legacy items should be removed at all, you are of the same mind as the Developers. You cannot be mad when it happens.

Nope. Waking the sleeper is in our (the players) control. The other (legacy items removal) are not in our control. Players having the ability to unilaterally remove other player's access to content is a very different situation.

I know you're smart enough to understand the difference there. So I'm going to assume that you're being unnecessarily pedantic just for the purpose of trolling. Have a good day, I'm done with this conversation.

[Fammaden]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are being inconsistent. If you believe legacy items should be removed at all, you are of the same mind as the Developers. You cannot be mad when it happens.

You haven't addressed the point of intent. You admittedly said the intent of waking Kerafyrm is loot denial. Do you believe the dev's intent in ending legacy item drops is also "loot denial"? That they have the same motivations as players would in not wanting late comers to have a chance at the same loot?

The reason its in the timeline is because the original designers decided the items shouldn't exist in the game in that form for balance purposes. Our devs are just mimicking that timeline verbatim, not with an agenda to "deny loot".

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Fammaden [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You haven't addressed the point of intent. You admittedly said the intent of waking Kerafyrm is loot denial. Do you believe the dev's intent in ending legacy item drops is also "loot denial"? That they have the same motivations as players would in not wanting late comers to have a chance at the same loot?

The reason its in the timeline is because the original designers decided the items shouldn't exist in the game in that form for balance purposes. Our devs are just mimicking that timeline verbatim, not with an agenda to "deny loot".

Yes, the Dev's intent of removing legacy items is "loot denial". That is literally the point. If they thought this was mean/unfair, etc., they would have changed the legacy item removal system. The Dev's intent to keep the Sleeper mechanic classic is to initiate legacy item removal. They simply put the switch in the player's hands, rather than on a fixed timeline.

And as I keep saying (which people keep conveniently ignoring), keeping the Warders alive is "loot denial" of Essence Lens. So that argument falls apart, because one group of players is getting denied items, no matter which option you choose, waking the Sleeper or keeping him asleep.

Originally Posted by Tethler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nope. Waking the sleeper is in our (the players) control. The other (legacy items removal) are not in our control. Players having the ability to unilaterally remove other player's access to content is a very different situation.

I know you're smart enough to understand the difference there. So I'm going to assume that you're being unnecessarily pedantic just for the purpose of trolling. Have a good day, I'm done with this conversation.

Nope, I am not being unnecessarily pedantic to troll. You just keep claiming this nebulous idea of "It's way different", without giving a good reason. That isn't a valid argument hehe, it is just being lazy. If you can honestly explain the difference, that would be great.

[wuanahto]

Think the devs/gms might wake the sleeper as punishment and say "better luck next server"?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The disconnect here is applying the argument of "players having the ability to deny loot is a dick move" to P99. Legacy item loot denial is a part of the game, and everybody but the most green of players understands that certain items get removed after a certain period of time. If you don't get the item in time, you don't get it.

Your argument would be valid if the Sleeper mechanic was the only situation in which legacy items got removed, AND Essence Lens didn't have the prerequisite of the Sleeper being awoken first. But neither of those are true, so the argument falls apart.

[loramin]

Death, you're being a pedant.

When the game kills you, or stops dropping loot, or does anything else negative, is it in some sense "dickish"? Yes.

Can any reasonably intelligent human (this includes you) understand the difference between the "dickishness" of a computer program, and the dickishness of humans who choose to be dicks? Also yes ...

... unless they have no actual argument to make, and pedantry is all they have left. so they "lean in to stupid" as you are doing so they can keep arguing.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Death, you're being a pedant.

When the game kills you, or stops dropping loot, or does anything else negative, is it in some sense "dickish"? Yes.

Can any reasonably intelligent human (this includes you) understand the difference between the "dickishness" of a computer program, and the dickishness of humans who choose to be dicks? Also yes ...

... unless they have no actual argument to make, and pedantry is all they have left. so they "lean in to stupid" as you are doing so they can keep arguing.

Your argument about computers is fallacious on it's face. If you program a computer to automatically launch nuclear missiles at random time intervals, you blame the human who wrote the program. You don't shrug your shoulders and say "The programmer didn't intend to be a dick, the computer is launching the nukes!"

Please answer me straight: What gives you the right to deny Essence Lens to players? By leaving the Sleeper sleeping, you are actively participating in loot denial.

[Ooloo]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Please answer me straight: What gives you the right to deny Essence Lens to players? By leaving the Sleeper sleeping, you are actively participating in loot denial.

I agree that ST have the right to wake the sleeper and deny lootz, but this isn't really a valid comparison. If a guild really wants that quest line, they'll just wake the sleeper themselves to get it. Pre-wake warder drops are *already* available, and one guild can choose to make them not available anymore. The lens can be turned *on*, whereas warder loot can only be turned *off*. So it's different, you're expanding the definition of "loot denial" to fit that under the umbrella.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Ooloo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I agree that ST have the right to wake the sleeper and deny lootz, but this isn't really a valid comparison. If a guild really wants that quest line, they'll just wake the sleeper themselves to get it. Pre-wake warder drops are *already* available, and one guild can choose to make them not available anymore. The lens can be turned *on*, whereas warder loot can only be turned *off*. So it's different, you're expanding the definition of "loot denial" to fit that under the umbrella.

That doesn't make sense because Essence Lens requires Warder loot to be turned off. You can't open up Essence Lens without closing Warder loot. There is no way to wake sleeper AND keep warders up. If that was the case, people would indeed keep the Warders up for more items.

Arguing about waking the sleeper is really an argument about who deserves what loot more: Warriors/Monks for robe/scepter, or most other classes with Essence Lens? What gives you the right to decide? There is no right answer, which is why it isn't a dick move. Warriors/Monks become sad when Sleeper dies, but other classes become happy. This isn't a situation where the only thing you do is turn off loot.