RMT Again

[Nimmanu]

Originally Posted by Byel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm dying at the novels wrote declaring dark winter a glorious fuzzy and warm guild, after rogean declared them essentially dirtier then any other guild which is saying ALOT. Damnit I wish they would name and shame, give a guild ratio..how many dark elves banned...anything!

Hey, I'm not arguing that we didn't have people who were doing this. I have admitted that I didn't KNOW they were.

But I see the people still in the guild, and I've grouped with many of them. I've chatted with almost all of them (in case you missed it, I'm chatty [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] ).

They are good people. I'm a good person.

Some of our members did something that I find deeply wrong. I think it's even morally wrong. I don't defend them, or that action.

But this isn't something we condone. We don't know how to recognize that. Not enough experience in P99.

You can be ignorant and still be a good person. Our guild is filled with helpful, good folks. Apparently it was also filled with others, for which we can only apologize and move on a bit more aware and hopefully learn from this mistake.

ALL of our officers and our GM are still there. They weren't banned because they were NOT in on any bad behavior. They don't support, condone, or assist with it under any circumstances.

We're certainly not perfect! But those of us who remain are great folks. It's a shame that this has happened for that reason more than any other. We don't deserve the reputation that you guys have willingly accepted for us. What we're being accused of is not something we agree with or believe in. None of our officers were hit in the ban, because we're just not like that.

The very principles the guild is founded on are against that. We made a mistake. We didn't know. We can admit that humbly. We are by no means perfect.

We remain as a guild. If we were 99% evil, vile monsters as you people are trying to paint us, he would have disbanded us without a second thought. You don't have to believe that we didn't know and do NOT agree with it. It's pretty clear that people want to hate us. I don't know why. I don't understand it.

At the end of the day, though... you don't know us. You haven't met the people in the guild. Some of our members did things we didn't agree with behind our backs. We're not okay with that. We're not bad people because bad people betrayed us, either.

[Thulack]

Originally Posted by Nimmanu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hey, I'm not arguing that we didn't have people who were doing this. I have admitted that I didn't KNOW they were.

But I see the people still in the guild, and I've grouped with many of them. I've chatted with almost all of them (in case you missed it, I'm chatty [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] ).

They are good people. I'm a good person.

Some of our members did something that I find deeply wrong. I think it's even morally wrong. I don't defend them, or that action.

But this isn't something we condone. We don't know how to recognize that. Not enough experience in P99.

You can be ignorant and still be a good person. Our guild is filled with helpful, good folks. Apparently it was also filled with others, for which we can only apologize and move on a bit more aware and hopefully learn from this mistake.

ALL of our officers and our GM are still there. They weren't banned because they were NOT in on any bad behavior. They don't support, condone, or assist with it under any circumstances.

We're certainly not perfect! But those of us who remain are great folks. It's a shame that this has happened for that reason more than any other. We don't deserve the reputation that you guys have willingly accepted for us. What we're being accused of is not something we agree with or believe in. None of our officers were hit in the ban, because we're just not like that.

The very principles the guild is founded on are against that. We made a mistake. We didn't know. We can admit that humbly. We are by no means perfect.

We remain as a guild. If we were 99% evil, vile monsters as you people are trying to paint us, he would have disbanded us without a second thought. You don't have to believe that we didn't know and do NOT agree with it. It's pretty clear that people want to hate us. I don't know why. I don't understand it.

At the end of the day, though... you don't know us. You haven't met the people in the guild. Some of our members did things we didn't agree with behind our backs. We're not okay with that. We're not bad people because bad people betrayed us, either.

Guilds get called out when they do shit. You are not the first guild to be called out and wont be the last.

[Ossigor]

I'm in DW. The officers of DW actively encourage us to sniff out RMT'ers and invite them into the guild (in fact, we pay them real money to bribe them to join, that's how hardcore RMT we are).

Actually, Dark Winter is basically anyone level 5-40 that is leveling on the server right now. I'm just a random, and was invited at random, but I can tell you that 99% of DW folk (that are active in guild chat) are just normal people that probably don't even know what the acronym RMT stands for.

Seriously, you have people in this guild asking such newb questions about EQ. Super innocent folks... it's funny that people think some great justice was served here to some big evil guild-- that's not the case at all. There just happens to be a huge number of people in the guild from rapid-fire ginvites.

DW is really just a zerg. That said, everyone active in gchat is helpful and friendly so I wanted to come to their defense. Whoever was RMT'ing were probably just rando alts of rich RMTers that wanted to have a guild tag/green text to read.

[Nimmanu]

Originally Posted by Thulack [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Guilds get called out when they do shit. You are not the first guild to be called out and wont be the last.

Except the guild didn't do it. We didn't all gather up and say, "Let's go buy some plat with RL money!!"

Is your entire guild defined exclusively by the bad things your members do? If some of your guildies group up and go deliberately and repeatedly train, and you find out about it two weeks later... did your GUILD do that? Is that what your GUILD is, a bunch of training jerks?

Or is that the bad behavior of a few people who do NOT represent the spirit of your guild? And if an officer found out and removed them without the knowledge of your GM, would they STILL be the end-all representatives of your guild??

Is YOUR guild defined by the mistakes or even outright jerkish things your members do? Or is your guild defined by the people who are most invested in it and who do the most for it? Who gets to decide for you, who defines your guild most thoroughly?

Originally Posted by Ossigor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm in DW. The officers of DW actively encourage us to sniff out RMT'ers and invite them into the guild (in fact, we pay them real money to bribe them to join, that's how hardcore RMT we are).

Actually, Dark Winter is basically anyone level 5-40 that is leveling on the server right now. I'm just a random, and was invited at random, but I can tell you that 99% of DW folk (that are active in guild chat) are just normal people that probably don't even know what the acronym RMT stands for.

Seriously, you have people in this guild asking such newb questions about EQ. Super innocent folks... it's funny that people think some great justice was served here to some big evil guild-- that's not the case at all. There just happens to be a huge number of people in the guild from rapid-fire ginvites.

DW is really just a zerg. That said, everyone active in gchat is helpful and friendly so I wanted to come to their defense. Whoever was RMT'ing were probably just rando alts of rich RMTers that wanted to have a guild tag/green text to read.

LOL, Yeah, I can't count how many times this evening I had to explain RMT (and I didn't know what it meant, myself... though I understood as soon as it was explained).

But some people just enjoy hating entire groups of people. It has never made sense to me, still doesn't. What are ya gonna do.

[Ossigor]

Originally Posted by Nimmanu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

LOL, Yeah, I can't count how many times this evening I had to explain RMT (and I didn't know what it meant, myself... though I understood as soon as it was explained).

But some people just enjoy hating entire groups of people. It has never made sense to me, still doesn't. What are ya gonna do.

Yeah, I do think it was a little preemptive for P99 staff to single out one guild here. "Results cut short.." still if you /who all dark winter, so its not like the guild was majority RMTers or everyone would be gone.

Trace those banned alts back to their main guilds :P

Regardless I wouldnt take it too personally-- people are just happy their favorite game is being protected from RMT and are a tad overzealous.... it'll blow over and anyone with a shred of commonsense will realize that it was just a few bad apples and doesnt represent the guild as a whole.

- Hansou

[Kreylyn]

Originally Posted by Nimmanu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Except the guild didn't do it. We didn't all gather up and say, "Let's go buy some plat with RL money!!"

Is your entire guild defined exclusively by the bad things your members do? If some of your guildies group up and go deliberately and repeatedly train, and you find out about it two weeks later... did your GUILD do that? Is that what your GUILD is, a bunch of training jerks?

Or is that the bad behavior of a few people who do NOT represent the spirit of your guild? And if an officer found out and removed them without the knowledge of your GM, would they STILL be the end-all representatives of your guild??

Is YOUR guild defined by the mistakes or even outright jerkish things your members do? Or is your guild defined by the people who are most invested in it and who do the most for it? Who gets to decide for you, who defines your guild most thoroughly?



LOL, Yeah, I can't count how many times this evening I had to explain RMT (and I didn't know what it meant, myself... though I understood as soon as it was explained).

But some people just enjoy hating entire groups of people. It has never made sense to me, still doesn't. What are ya gonna do.

You have stated your new and didn't know. I can understand that, as you have pointed out.

The part you may also not know, is that any guild wears the tag of it's members actions as much if not more than the members wear the guild tag reputation. Just a couple of "bad seeds" can make a reputation for all of a guild's members. A single player can build a good reputation even while wearing a questionable guild tag.

Is that fair? No. No one said it was supposed to be. It is how it works though. It is how the community enforces behavioral modification. As an individual, a player can be a dick and the reputation is theirs alone. As a guild member, the community is going to hold that player's guild responsible for the player's dickish behavior. Much more so than the player. At that point either the guild corrects the behavior such as through threat of removing the problem and makes amends, or they deal with consequences of the social back lash. This is why large guilds who have a lot of community interaction develop well known "reputations" good or bad.

Unfortunately the backlash here is massive due to the large number of members (former members) who engaged in inappropriate behavior. Add to that the damage looks to have been done with out any prior knowledge by the leadership of RMT or opportunity for the guild leadership to do proactively change anything before the ban hammer and announcement.

The Guild Leader and officers choose to mass invite with little to no vetting process. It's part of your guild's general operating procedure. It is those actions in this regard that has put your guild in this situation. The bonus to that is you have grown exponentially in a very short time. Down side... well.. we are talking about that now aren't we?

I feel for your members who didn't do anything wrong. I understand that you didn't know how to prevent this previously. I even tend to believe the officers of your guild never intended or have any idea this was going on or going to happen.

But....

The reputation that you say is unfounded and undeserved is ultimately because of your guild officers actions and decisions. Not because they knew or condoned the RMT problem. Your guild chose to mass invite with little to no vetting. This situation is just one of the many possible results of those actions. Your guild is under the microscope now because of those choices having now bitten you in the arse. This is normal. This happens to all guilds on some level. This will happen again.

Don't blame the GMs or the community for calling you out on this. Learn from this. Stand up, accept/acknowledge the failure, and take actions in your guild and it's policies to change things for the better.

That's how your guild will recover... or forever be known as something else.




Krey

[Tenlaar]

Originally Posted by Nimmanu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We don't deserve the reputation that you guys have willingly accepted for us.

It's pretty clear that people want to hate us. I don't know why. I don't understand it.

At the end of the day, though... you don't know us.

...your guild was proclaimed dirtiest whistles on a box full of hardcore dirty whistles and almost disbanded...

[Nimmanu]

Originally Posted by Tenlaar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

...your guild was proclaimed dirtiest whistles on a box full of hardcore dirty whistles and almost disbanded...

The dirty whistles were removed from the server.

Let's see your whistle, buddy! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Tenlaar]

Originally Posted by Nimmanu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The dirty whistles were removed from the server.

Let's see your whistle, buddy! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My whistle is clean as can be.

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Rararboker]

Originally Posted by Nimmanu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The dirty whistles were removed from the server.

Let's see your whistle, buddy! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Shut your hore mouth. Tenlaar is a saint.


Otherwise, this definitely perked up my evening.