new patch ench charm

[ziahh]

Originally Posted by Lazortag [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I still find my enchanter fun. If you needed an overpowered charm to enjoy the class then I feel sorry for you.

Also, just a bit of advice: you should focus more on gathering evidence than posting about how you're going to quit because of the changes, because the former actually accomplishes things, and the latter just trivializes your cause.

i have posted more then anyone on this thread. read all page. iam not rage quitting. i made an enchanter to charm and solo since i was playing 1 in kunark when it was release. now the class and dead and iam not starting another toon. i had fun. it was free and i enjoy it. time to move on till it get fix ,if not no biggies.

and btw you still like enchanter .. you got a lv 23.... get 1 to 60 soloing for a start then get back here. ;P

[Brain]

Evidence? Memory is evidence bonehead, unfortunately it's not accepted here. (Unless you're a dev!)

I want to know what prompted this change/nerf in the first place?? Obviously you guys don't have any "legitimate" classic evidence regarding charm so why change it? Perhaps it was the crying about how enchanters were OP'd?! Or did you guys just "feel" it was OP'd based purely on your opinion? Really? Please tell me why it was changed. Maybe pre-nerf charm coding WASN'T classic so ya'll felt the need to change it, based on no real data, to make it "feel" more classic...

In any case, I think the dev's are a bit hypocritical atm (from an evidence-required-for-change standpoint) - it did not "balance" charm in any way, and with the extremely high mana cost associated with each cast, charming has become utterly useless.

Who are YOU to classify something as being overpowered?

[chr0nix]

From http://replay.web.archive.org/200208...ell.asp?Id=121

With a mere 156 charisma, I've found this spell just lasts all day long. This weekend I used beguile a lot, leveled up to 39, and used this one a whole lot more. In dozens of charms, I had one instant break and one or two resists; every other time it lasted the length of the fight, and I was able to break it at my leisure with invis. In certain instances this is better than mez for group crowd control

And that is with the lvl 39 charm.

We need charm to work like it was in classic. I have never had a full duration on charm since the patch, even on green lvl 1-5's. (Some even broke within 1-2 minutes which is ridiculous)

On a scale from 1 to 10,

Charm before patch was a 10

After patch is a 1

Classic - 5

[Brain]

Charm wasn't a 10, if 10 is perfect... Charm has been nerfed twice on this server, this being the second...

But yeah, not really sure what other kind of evidence you dev's are looking for.

Excellent post chron, thanks

[Blingx]

Originally Posted by chr0nix [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

From http://replay.web.archive.org/200208...ell.asp?Id=121

With a mere 156 charisma, I've found this spell just lasts all day long. This weekend I used beguile a lot, leveled up to 39, and used this one a whole lot more. In dozens of charms, I had one instant break and one or two resists; every other time it lasted the length of the fight, and I was able to break it at my leisure with invis. In certain instances this is better than mez for group crowd control

And that is with the lvl 39 charm.

We need charm to work like it was in classic. I have never had a full duration on charm since the patch, even on green lvl 1-5's. (Some even broke within 1-2 minutes which is ridiculous)

On a scale from 1 to 10,

Charm before patch was a 10

After patch is a 1

Classic - 5

What this does:
This makes a valid argument for the level 39 charm Cajoling Whispers. Has anyone tested the level 39 charm Cajoling Whispers to see if it does or does not behave this way?

What this does not:
This does not make a valid argument for any charm other than the level 39 charm Cajoling Whispers.

[Beauregard]

Here is a thread from 2003 on FoH Forums. (http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorp...expansion.html) On the first few pages they discuss a rather recent (luclin maybe) nerf to charm. That obviously won't happen here for 2 reasons.

1. We will never see Luclin besides looking in the night sky.

2. Charm could not possibly get any shittier.

[chr0nix]

Saw this post under the server patch and believe it belonged here.

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

http://wiki.project1999.org/index.ph...nchanter_Guide and
http://wiki.project1999.org/index.ph...er_Spell_Guide

These were stolen from a Tripod page. It looks like Xornn started in late kunark (he had breeze), hit 50 around Velious, and took a break until Luclin at 56.

Some quotes:

Under charm soloing he says 'honestly I usually get 2 fights in easy using attack slow as the edge'.

'That's all there is to it, really. Charm sometimes holds for 5 minutes. Other times it holds for 5 seconds.' [note: that was about the L12 spell even!]

'Charm soloing is very dangerous now, and if you do choose to fight this way, it's important to consider this factor--if the average charm is 2.5 minutes (reasonable with my experience), can your pet finish the fight with your pull in that time? At one point in charm soloing, about 40 to 50, mobs you charmed could kill two other mobs before charm broke. You will find with the colossal increases in total hit points of the mobs, even the heavy hitting charmed pets have trouble finishing a fight in under three minutes. Dealing with a charm break is practically expected at this point, unless you are able to locate a set of low hit point mobs that will carve each other up quickly. I no longer recommend using slow on the enemy mob, as you will rarely hold a pet that can survive two fights in a row, and losing your pet can often mean zoning because you don't have the mana to nuke finish a mob. Successful charm soloing usually involves a pair of mobs spawning together, rooting one, charming the other and letting them battle it out, doing your best to make sure your pet barely wins, allowing you to break charm and have a fleeing mob left to finish off with nukes. You may even consider hasting your pet, to make for a reliable kill time. If you choose this route, then I suggest slowing the enemy, and going for a two mob kill before charm breaks. A strong haste is often enough to pull this off, but you can go from full health with Rune V up to very dead in seconds in this situation.'

So, here we have:

1) He could kill 2 L50 mobs reasonably frequently with charm if he hasted the pet. A L48-50 Sarnak Myrmidon has ~10K hp. I remember parsing it once, and it did about 100 dps with DW and haste, so probably 50 base dps and 75 with haste. 2 of them would be 20K hps @ 75 dps or 250 seconds plus 10-20 seconds to find mob #2. This would require a 4.5 minute charm. Without haste, it would require 400 seconds or 6.5 minutes.

2) He could kill 2 L40-45 mobs reasonably frequently with charm without haste at L50. A L44 Lava Duct Crawler has ~4.5K hp and does maybe 40dps without haste. That gives us 225 seconds, or just under 4 minutes of fighting time.

3) He claims the 'average charm' is 2.5 minutes. I assume this is counting all the breaks. I don't trust this as much as the calculations since we humans are very bad at averaging this kind of stuff in our heads.

So what I get from the guide is that at 50+, on mobs 5-10 levels below the enchanter, with tash but without malo, charm should last 4-5 minutes fairly frequently, break early some of the time (maybe 20-25% of the time), and generally break before 5-7 minutes.

If you believe in Xornn's memory over raw calculations, you get a 3-4 minute charm fairly frequently, with some early breaks, and the occasional 5-6 minute charm, which works out to an average of 2.5 minutes.

This is somewhat less duration than charm before patch, but clearly more than we are getting now. Kind of amazingly, I actually agree with Verant's balancing there. Keep in mind that the risk of charm soloing with a hasted L49 pet is really, really high. As he says, 1 bash = dead enchanter.

P.S.

With all that said, I had a great time in Sebilis last night with TMO (their reputation on this board seems totally undeserved) doing stuns and slows. So I am still enjoying my enchanter, even without my froggy pets. And if you guys can find better evidence that the current charm is classic, I'm not going to ragequit.

[nalkin]

lol enchanters till qqing... nice. The glory days are over my friends. Hold onto your butts cause ezmode is over. Remember, it never hurts to put that /lfg tag on.

[Blingx]

Originally Posted by Beauregard [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here is a thread from 2003 on FoH Forums. (http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorp...expansion.html) On the first few pages they discuss a rather recent (LoY maybe) nerf to charm. That obviously won't happen here for 2 reasons.

1. We will never see Ykesha.

2. My ability to research has gotten worse(-1).

FTFY

February 25, 2003 - LoY
December 4, 2001 - SOL

[Blingx]

Originally Posted by chr0nix [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Saw this post under the server patch and believe it belonged here.

On the same page under solo tactics for charm...

You will have horrible charm durations. You will be chased to zone or die horribly. You will get a train on you that you can't do anything about.

That's the only secret to charm solo, really...

1. Gain control.
2. Regain control.
3. Regain control...

Best case scenario break, the pet rushes you and the other mob is rooted.