Alter End-Game Mechanics

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Alarti, do not bring VP tactics into this debate, you and I both know its a separate zone even more unruly than standard. VP has the server rules TMO wants to play with, using it as a counter-point only harms your own argument.

The other part TMO loves to downplay in VP is the initial opening, which was a GM-enforced rotation. TMO got 3 dragons, IB/TR got 3 dragons. You also all had time to pal around, checking it out, setting up tracker bots, CotH bots, playing with positioning and pulling while not under duress from another guild. Any other guild walking into VP since then (the only example being VD), has been heavily contested by TMO's train team.

As far as IB's treatment of you, you guys fought tooth and nail against it, I doubt I even know all the underhanded in-game tactics. But I don't remember seeing TMO's RL pictures in server chat, TMO's guild message boards strewn across Server Chat. Disregarding any in-game shenanigans that IB probably did, TMO went lower, taking the animosity way past the game. If TMO wants to do whatever it can get away with in the name of "competition" in-game, fine. But your outright lack of respect even out of the game has shown the jaded state your competition with IB/TR left you in.

No other guild desires to pay that price. You've paid it, you've earned it. Enjoy it, -ALL- of it.

When did I mention VP?

[Ravager]

At any rate, TMO has to admit something has to change in the end game if they truly want competition, because they're certainly not getting it the way the raid scene is now.

[Daldolma]

Originally Posted by Jimes [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yes, keep telling yourselves that it has something to do with unemployment if that dries your tears.

Dude, if anyone here is crying, it's you. Nobody is allowed to levy any kind of critique on the status quo without you going into hyper-defensive mode about "earning" mobs. Newsflash: you didn't earn anything. You're a non-core member of a massive guild with a core membership that is completely self-sufficient. There's nothing TMO can do with their full membership that they couldn't do with half their membership -- the half that is responsible for tracking every minute of every day. Your contribution is convenience.

It doesn't take some kind of super-human to join TMO. On the contrary, TMO accepts some terrible players pretty regularly. Don't take it the wrong way: there's no reason not to. That's the problem with the server status quo. Numbers are far more important than quality. TMO is a rational actor within the system that's been created.

And yes, having a core of unemployed players that can be ready within minutes for 18 hours a day is what has put TMO on top. It's not meant as an insult; merely an observation. It was the same thing that had put IB on top. In classic EQ, variances were much smaller, and patch days overlapped windows. Spawn times were far more predictable and it was often impossible to camp out at a certain location without hurting your chances of getting another raid mob if it were to spawn first. Here, windows are so massive that it's just about who can be ready at any time of the day. Nobody is going to bother tracking for a dragon/god when it is just as likely to spawn at 2AM Tuesday as 8AM Friday, or some other hour they have no chance at mobilizing for since their guild members are asleep, working, or otherwise being functional human beings. TMO knows they can get 30 players on at any hour of any day; tracking can be split up between the masses; that's why you "earn" more mobs.

That didn't used to be the ultimate trump card in classic EQ. On P99, availability has replaced ability. It's a server flaw. Server staff got sick of dealing with 90-man poopsock forces fighting with each other, so they made variance enormous. What they should've done is simply eliminate the play nice rules. Poopsocking doesn't work if you're getting constantly trained by your competition, and patch days reset windows so they overlap.

[Lazortag]

Originally Posted by nilbog [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am still interested in hearing proposals for better end game systems. In the past, I have tried to comment on the ones I thought were good and still in the spirit of classic, non-instanced raiding.

If there was a perfect system in which raid targets spawned simultaneously within a certain window:

• Would guilds still poopsock?
• Would a single guild still get most of the targets?

From what I've seen, raiding guilds on p99 have far greater numbers than were historically on my eqlive server. I would hate to make a system that somehow made things worse :T

Anyways, keep up the proposals. Hopefully something is suggested that supports more guilds getting targets without diminishing competition.

I'm going to post a really long response to this, so please read it! I support a system with simultaneous repops, although I think there are lots of variations on how it can be done that all work fine. Here's an example of a system I like that I think is very simple and intuitive, and a lot closer to how things worked in classic:

-All 3 day spawns except Draco (so Maestro and Trak?) would be on the same timer, with the same variance they have now, except that all of them share a variance (ie they all spawn at the same time)*
-All 7 day spawns except Noble Djorn and VP mobs would be on the same timer (Nagafen, Vox, Inny, CT, Faydedar, Talendor, Gorenaire, Severilous, VS, and anyone else I missed), with the same variance they have now, except that all of them spawn simultaneously.
-All VP dragons would have the same timer/variance as they do now, except they all spawn simultaneously.
-Phinny would still be a 12 hour spawn, Noble Djorn is still a 7 day spawn, with no variance.
-Draco would still be a 3 day spawn with variance, who gets respawned whenever CT pops.

Additionally, I would have it so that ALL mobs repop at the same time after any content patch (so not a maintenance patch or a server crash, but after an intentional content patch), since this was classic.

The way it would work is that the timer for a set of mobs would start as soon as all of the mobs sharing a timer are dead. Draco has to be on a different timer because he's a 3 day spawn but CT also repops Draco. VP dragons have to be in a different group or else TMO could just cockblock the entire server by leaving one VP dragon up (I know they would never do this, but since no one else has access to VP, this shouldn't be allowed). I've thought of this system for a while and feel very comfortable defending it, so if someone disagrees with any part of it I'd like to hear why.

Here are some reasons why this system is better than the current one:

Time investment
The current system involves too much of a time investment, both for what was expected in classic, and for what should be expected of an average person with a full time job. Every 7 day spawn except Noble has a 96 hour window currently, which means guilds can waste anywhere from 0 to 864 hours a week tracking just 7 day spawns (compared to classic where raid mobs had very short variances). This leads to a lot of problems:
(i) Burnout: players invest way more time into this server than they would have needed to in classic, leading to a much higher burnout rate. It's no surprise that many players from high end guilds end up selling their accounts or quitting. It's bad for the server's population to have high burnout rates.
(ii) Discouraging competition: players from casual guilds try tracking, but feel that their time is wasted when the mob spawns while their guildies aren't awake, or if they just end up being outmobilized. Because of this many players feel it's not worth it to track raid mobs, leading to a raid scene that is more likely to be dominated by one guild.
(iii) Problems at the low-end: players spend so much time tracking that they don't have time for alts, which means that there are less players to group with at low levels, which is bad for the server's longevity. Also, many players hear about the raid scene since it's constantly complained about, and are discouraged from entering it, leading to some players quitting early so that they don't waste their time.
(iv) Rule-breaking: empirically we know that the current system makes players break the rules more than they would. Because of the time investment, tensions are higher when a raid mob spawns, and players are more likely to resort to training and other offenses. Also, using 3rd party programs to track raid mobs is a problem, as well as cheating to find out when mobs spawn (such as the incident where several guilds knew when mobs were going to spawn because they had access to an old GM account).
(v) Poopsocking: again, because of the massive time investment required, guilds sometimes resort to poopsocking (camping a raid mob with 15 or more players for the duration of its spawn window) because it's the only way to guarantee they will get a certain mob. This is very anti-competitive and has discouraged many players from entering the raid scene.

GM intervention
When you have mobs spawning at different times, it's more likely you will have multiple guilds present at the same raid. In contrast, when mobs spawn simultaneously, guilds often head for separate targets because there's simply more content available to kill. You also have all mobs dying within the space of a few hours. All of this leads to less work for GM's because there are less opportunities for raid interference, and all raid interference that would happen is contained within a small space of time. Some input from a GM would be nice, but I'd guess that the amount of work GM's had to do during the last repop was a lot less than the amount of work GM's have to do in the space of an entire week.

Bug reporting
When content is less accessible to other guilds, you have less opportunities for players to report bugs with that content. Case in point, when we first engaged VS (months after Kunark was released), we discovered that runes weren't blocking his lifetap proc (this was actually a really big bug that affected other encounters, not just VS). Similarly there was an issue on the red server where certain epic pieces were dropping in fear, which went unnoticed for a while. When you have various people with different knowledge of classic and experiences with classic content all seeing the same encounters, it's easier to fine tune those encounters and make them more accurate to classic.

As for this:

• Would guilds still poopsock?
• Would a single guild still get most of the targets?

1-Yes, but they would gain less from poopsocking. When mobs spawn at different times, you could theoretically poopsock all of them. When mobs spawn at the same time, poopsocking all of them leads to guilds being severely overstretched. I would guess VS and Trak will still be poopsocked from time to time, but there's like a dozen other raid mobs so I don't see this as a big deal.
2-No, a single guild wouldn't get most of the targets (and if they did, they'd get markedly less than they get now). They wouldn't even necessarily get all of the good ones. Our guild's only VS kill was during a server repop, and it happened because everything spawned at once and we knew the top two guilds would be fighting over Trak. On other repops (around the release of kunark) we usually got 2-4 mobs (like Naggy, Vox, Draco, Inny, Faydedar, Noble, Maestro), which isn't bad at all given the amount of time we invest in the game. In addition to the mobs we got, we also got to attempt bosses we normally wouldn't have much of a chance at seeing. I know the last repop led to TMO getting most of the mobs, but it wasn't representative of how repops usually play out on p99, or how they will play out in the future. Trust me when I say that if the system were changed it would really rejuvenate interest in the raid scene, and you wouldn't see guilds monopolizing content to the same extent that they do now.

*edit: I forgot Master Yael.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

At any rate, TMO has to admit something has to change in the end game if they truly want competition, because they're certainly not getting it the way the raid scene is now.

Nothing can fix the competition aspect other another guild who has the drive to compete all the solutions above would still result in tmo getting a vast majority of the kills.

A competiting guild needs to decide it wants it enough to put in the time to start pinching kills and gearing up. Competition won't be solved until months after velious release,(large amount of active raiders returning to the server disregarded)

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Dude, if anyone here is crying, it's you. Nobody is allowed to levy any kind of critique on the status quo without you going into hyper-defensive mode about "earning" mobs. Newsflash: you didn't earn anything. You're a non-core member of a massive guild with a core membership that is completely self-sufficient. There's nothing TMO can do with their full membership that they couldn't do with half their membership -- the half that is responsible for tracking every minute of every day. Your contribution is convenience.

It doesn't take some kind of super-human to join TMO. On the contrary, TMO accepts some terrible players pretty regularly. Don't take it the wrong way: there's no reason not to. That's the problem with the server status quo. Numbers are far more important than quality. TMO is a rational actor within the system that's been created.

And yes, having a core of unemployed players that can be ready within minutes for 18 hours a day is what has put TMO on top. It's not meant as an insult; merely an observation. It was the same thing that had put IB on top. In classic EQ, variances were much smaller, and patch days overlapped windows. Spawn times were far more predictable and it was often impossible to camp out at a certain location without hurting your chances of getting another raid mob if it were to spawn first. Here, windows are so massive that it's just about who can be ready at any time of the day. Nobody is going to bother tracking for a dragon/god when it is just as likely to spawn at 2AM Tuesday as 8AM Friday, or some other hour they have no chance at mobilizing for since their guild members are asleep, working, or otherwise being functional human beings. TMO knows they can get 30 players on at any hour of any day; tracking can be split up between the masses; that's why you "earn" more mobs.

That didn't used to be the ultimate trump card in classic EQ. On P99, availability has replaced ability. It's a server flaw. Server staff got sick of dealing with 90-man poopsock forces fighting with each other, so they made variance enormous. What they should've done is simply eliminate the play nice rules. Poopsocking doesn't work if you're getting constantly trained by your competition, and patch days reset windows so they overlap.

You have no idea what you are talking about most of our core members have full time jobs as well as hobbies. We happen to have euro and asian/aussie players to help us on the weaker hours. I'm uundeniably a core member, as you call it. And I'm away at work 10hrs a day, am at the gym 90 mins a day, and limy g/f demands my attentions most of the remaining time, yet I maintain a 40-50% raid attendance and never have my phone on for sleep time batphones.

Get some new material

[Daldolma]

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nothing can fix the competition aspect other another guild who has the drive to compete all the solutions above would still result in tmo getting a vast majority of the kills.

A competiting guild needs to decide it wants it enough to put in the time to start pinching kills and gearing up. Competition won't be solved until months after velious release,(large amount of active raiders returning to the server disregarded)

You're making a mistaken assumption that TMO will remain in tact and as constructed. You will inevitably lose players to burnout -- lots of them. Currently, you're rolling in new applicants because you're monopolizing end game content. Anyone that wants to raid has to pick you or find a big enough core with enough free time to compete with you. Joining is just easier. And you get enough loot to keep everyone happy.

If reforms changed the landscape of the raid content, you'd have more competition, fewer applicants, and more disgruntled members. You'd still dominate end-game for a while, but that would eventually give way to a more natural state of competition with other guilds.

[Hitchens]

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You're making a mistaken assumption that TMO will remain in tact and as constructed.

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If reforms changed the landscape of the raid content, you'd have more competition, fewer applicants, and more disgruntled members. You'd still dominate end-game for a while, but that would eventually give way to a more natural state of competition with other guilds.

You just answered one assumption with another.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You're making a mistaken assumption that TMO will remain in tact and as constructed. You will inevitably lose players to burnout -- lots of them. Currently, you're rolling in new applicants because you're monopolizing end game content. Anyone that wants to raid has to pick you or find a big enough core with enough free time to compete with you. Joining is just easier. And you get enough loot to keep everyone happy.

If reforms changed the landscape of the raid content, you'd have more competition, fewer applicants, and more disgruntled members. You'd still dominate end-game for a while, but that would eventually give way to a more natural state of competition with other guilds.

You are making a mistaken assumption that TMO won't remain intact and as constructed. We will lose people and gain people over time naturally, but as you said our core can handle it, and a lot of our core has been playing together since 99 others for years as well. We actually enjoy each others company and would play for that even if fully geared. Sorry friend

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Hitchens [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You just answered one assumption with another.

Good job catching that