Lock Server Until an Agreement is Met

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by Elements [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Any system that tries to remove monopoly and spread resources amongst various non-competing guilds is going to have the natural consequence of spreading people out into multiple guilds. There doesn't need to be any cohesive effort.

OH, so you are going against Rogean then?

[Autotune]

btw, I think raiding guilds need to trim the fat and the real hardcores would actually like to be able to do that.

[Elements]

Originally Posted by Autotune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

OH, so you are going against Rogean then?

explain

[Autotune]

anyhow, I have to head out, I'll try to remember to come back and check this thread later.

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What I find most interesting is that everyone freely accepts the idea that more work leads more rewards. Camping an FBSS for many hours should, and does, lead to that person realizing more benefit than those who are not as dedicated to acquiring that particular item.

It does not apply to the endgame because the extra work currently required to get raid targets is the result of non-classic variance.

[Elements]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It does not apply to the endgame because the extra work currently required to get raid targets is the result of non-classic variance.

Explain how it doesn't? If anything variance was introduced to mirror the exact concept Xasten is explaining.

[Hailto]

I agree with this, lock the server and watch how fast the rest of these whiners accept a decent proposal.

[sanforce]

Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What I find most interesting is that everyone freely accepts the idea that more work leads more rewards. Camping an FBSS for many hours should, and does, lead to that person realizing more benefit than those who are not as dedicated to acquiring that particular item.

Yet, when we apply that to the endgame, people begin chafing as if the concept did not apply. EQ was built upon this notion from the ground up. Abashi even went on record saying that "no one is "entitled" to items in the game." The hardcores are not seeking entitlements. They're asking that the system that Classic EQ was based off of be respected. However, this is not a perfect reflection of Classic, and everyone recognizes that part of this server's purpose is to create an environment for people to experience content they did not see on live. However, preservation of the Classic environment has always been the primary consideration. With both purposes in mind, there's no reason to think that we can't act cooperatively while respecting both the classic roots of work and effort and the modern notion of respect for the casual. However, we seem to be far from that synthesis.

The GM staff has recently handed a large portion of the population an immense amount of artificial bargaining power for the purpose of creating a system that respects both sides while still rewarding extra effort. The casual side was recently offered one third of all mob spawns, and it was flatly rejected for want of a direct 50/50 split. This is blatant rent seeking, and the recent rejection was a brazen attempt to hostilely maximize the outcome of an artificially produced windfall.

Calling the hardcores "entitled kids" is unproductive when you're categorically rejecting deals offered in good faith by leveraging your artificial bargaining position to grind talks to a halt.

This. The hardcore raid environment should be preserved and encouraged or people are going to spread alts into other casual guilds. I have a few alts in the 50s that have never been guilded, why would I want to place them in TMO if they have a better chance to get loot in a Tier B guild that is handed mobs?

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by sanforce [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This. The hardcore raid environment should be preserved and encouraged or people are going to spread alts into other casual guilds. I have a few alts in the 50s that have never been guilded, why would I want to place them in TMO if they have a better chance to get loot in a Tier B guild that is handed mobs?

Because if people find out about it (and they will) all of your toons will be permanently banned? Remember, the GMs said they'd enforce any player agreements, not just some impotent council of guilds.

[Ciroco]

Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

With both purposes in mind, there's no reason to think that we can't act cooperatively while respecting both the classic roots of work and effort and the modern notion of respect for the casual.

Hold on a second; we all understand that the word "casual" is a relative term here, right? The second tier of guilds that is being thrown around would have been considered as hardcore as it gets on Live. This isn't some new age MMO civil rights movement. The issue is the lack of guild progression past the lower (and maybe middle) tier of raid mobs, not that people who log on twice a week are crying for epics.