The Common Man's NToV Raid Rules Thread

[am0n]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Until first in force turns into a guild sitting at the designated spot 40 people deep 24 hours before the content even comes into window to secure their shot. P99 is home to a special sort of degenerate.

And that's okay. If those people want that spawn so badly they do that, power to them. It frees up other spawns for other guilds. I'm pretty sure that's the point he was getting at.

[JboxCSU]

Originally Posted by am0n [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And that's okay. If those people want that spawn so badly they do that, power to them. It frees up other spawns for other guilds. I'm pretty sure that's the point he was getting at.

I like it.

[Fanguru]

First in force would be a nightmare to enforce, but let us entertain the idea a minute.

What would it grant exactly?
Everyone has to move away for XXmn so first in force can make an attempt?
How long can they stall before engaging?
If that timer runs out, are other guilds meant to pull through first in force?
Where do other guilds wait?
What happens if first in force wipes, is it FTE again between other guilds to decide who picks up the mob? Since other guilds moved away, there is probably trash on the way. More trains?

With so many guilds competing for the same mobs and so few spots, I do not see this happening realistically.

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by am0n [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And that's okay. If those people want that spawn so badly they do that, power to them. It frees up other spawns for other guilds. I'm pretty sure that's the point he was getting at.

There's no way that will ever be possible. There's no way you can tell the hardcore guilds that first in force from a socking guild will remove their ability to compete for a target. I appreciate that you have this idea of a spirited competitive raid scene where guilds can choose where to focus their efforts, be rewarded, and grow. In reality Rampage is still killing 95% of any content they attempt to go after, while 3 other lower tier guilds go straight mercenary for any possible target when it suits them.

The fundamental problem with p99 is we were in Kunark for 4 years, the end game is super crazy over saturated, your average veteran raider on this server has something like 4 or more level 60 characters which allows for a strategically planted raid force to compete for targets all over the world. I mean I HATE leveling, I legitimately leveled Chest, and then I have 3 other level 60s that came up through Chardok, plus I have a few level 52 characters for naggy/Vox. New guilds get choked out because they won't ever have that sort of infrastructure because they are 4 years behind the curve.

Not to mention some of the Velious content isn't properly tuned (any fearing dragon) so you're forced to contort your raid force into these ridiculous permutations where you have 15 rogues and 10 clerics to even attempt content which is why you see Taken Asgard Forsaken always teaming up for stuff.

[Kekephee]

Originally Posted by am0n [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And that's okay. If those people want that spawn so badly they do that, power to them. It frees up other spawns for other guilds. I'm pretty sure that's the point he was getting at.

Requesting someone post a screenshot of one of the famous 300-person weekend-long Trakanon socks so this person knows what they're defending

[arsenalpow]

Just to illustrate the silliness that is GM enforcement and first in force, here is a 100% true anecdote regarding the matter.

Back when raid target windows were absurd BDA used to do Jugg farm sessions while Trak was in window. The goal was to get spells for our members and if Trak happened to spawn during the long ass window we could take a shot at him. We'd farm from a protector kill to a protector spawn, a good 3 hour raid or something. Typically we would make camp at the cubby below poop mountain and just leisurely kill stuff. On this particular day Trak was running late into window so TMO was lurking about. We ended up moving our raid force up to near Jumpy's spawn point so we could immediately contest Trak should he spawn while we continued to kill Juggs.

TMO ended up logging in full force, moved directly on top of Trak's spawn point (which mind you is 50 paces from where we were set up) and claimed first in force because they were actually on the spawn point as opposed to near the spawn point. Amelinda awarded TMO first in force rights and they got one of their 200+ Trakanon kills so they could continue VP keying level 1s so they could have twink enchanters with charm sticks or twink necros with soul well staves.

That level of excess is what the hardcore raiders of this server expect. It's not enough to have a 6k raid buffed character with full ST gear, full NToV gear, and AoW drops - it's about having 3 other alts geared like that as well and those hardcore players will do WHATEVER IT TAKES to get that loot. They would sit in Venril Sathir's room for over 100 hours just to get a kill. Taken used to straight up sock Inny for 100 hours at a time if need be. First in force would be a disaster.

[maestrom]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just to illustrate the silliness that is GM enforcement and first in force, here is a 100% true anecdote regarding the matter.

Back when raid target windows were absurd BDA used to do Jugg farm sessions while Trak was in window. The goal was to get spells for our members and if Trak happened to spawn during the long ass window we could take a shot at him. We'd farm from a protector kill to a protector spawn, a good 3 hour raid or something. Typically we would make camp at the cubby below poop mountain and just leisurely kill stuff. On this particular day Trak was running late into window so TMO was lurking about. We ended up moving our raid force up to near Jumpy's spawn point so we could immediately contest Trak should he spawn while we continued to kill Juggs.

TMO ended up logging in full force, moved directly on top of Trak's spawn point (which mind you is 50 paces from where we were set up) and claimed first in force because they were actually on the spawn point as opposed to near the spawn point. Amelinda awarded TMO first in force rights and they got one of their 200+ Trakanon kills so they could continue VP keying level 1s so they could have twink enchanters with charm sticks or twink necros with soul well staves.

That level of excess is what the hardcore raiders of this server expect. It's not enough to have a 6k raid buffed character with full ST gear, full NToV gear, and AoW drops - it's about having 3 other alts geared like that as well and those hardcore players will do WHATEVER IT TAKES to get that loot. They would sit in Venril Sathir's room for over 100 hours just to get a kill. Taken used to straight up sock Inny for 100 hours at a time if need be. First in force would be a disaster.

I really appreciate your willingness to participate in the conversation. I admit fully that I don't raid here, and a group of dickfaces that want to ruin something aren't going to be stopped by a rules change. But it's actually pretty easy to write easily enforceable rules regarding first in force.

Under the rule I propose, the first guild to get to X people in a ZONE has the right to announce to the zone (and if necessary to other guild leaders) that they have claimed this entire spawn of target Y.

To use your trak example. If your guild had X people in seb, you would have the right to claim trak for your guild, and as long as your guild maintained at least X people in the zone, you would be able to enforce your claim on trak against any other guild, not matter where they position their raid. Its not first on the spawn, its not bigger force, its first in force: the first guild to reach the raid force threshhold.

In your example, TMO would have broken the rule and your guild would have a right to have a CSR staff come in and enforce your rights. Same as if they had trained you or KSed you under the current FTE rules.

If TMO saw BDA gathering for trak, TMO would be free to log in their poop mountain alts and try to get first in force on you, but then BDA would be able to take Kael, or ToV, or Zland. In order for a guild to claim 1 target (target will obviously need to be defined broadly in Velious raid zones, statue would necessarily include AoW), the guild would have to give up its claim to all other raid targets because we have rules about being logged into two characters at the same time.

This would be pretty easy to enforce. Count the number of BDA in a zone. If BDA is the first guild to get to X then they get the target. Roll fraps of the couple of minutes leading up to your guild making a claim and then you're done. If your guild drops below X, another guild can, if they get to X before you get back to it, take your claim.

The benefit is, the fraps is of the zone population, not who trained who with what failed pull. Much less at stake.

[maestrom]

The problem with your trak example, was there wasn't a clear rule, not that the intent of the rule was bad.

[Fanguru]

So you can sit your X people at ToV entrance, claim Aaryonar, and afk + petition guilds getting FTE on him?

[maestrom]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There's no way that will ever be possible. There's no way you can tell the hardcore guilds that first in force from a socking guild will remove their ability to compete for a target. I appreciate that you have this idea of a spirited competitive raid scene where guilds can choose where to focus their efforts, be rewarded, and grow. In reality Rampage is still killing 95% of any content they attempt to go after, while 3 other lower tier guilds go straight mercenary for any possible target when it suits them.

It's actually very easy to tell hardcore guilds what they can and cannot do. Sirken tells people what to do all the time. He tells them that they're not allowed 2-box. They're not allowed to RMT. They're not allowed to speed hack. They're not allowed to train people. They're not allowed to KS. They're not allowed talk shit about staff members.

People that don't play by the rules have action taken against them. If first in force is adopted, the hardcore players would play by the rules because if they don't then they would have appropriate action taken against them.

Rampage will probably still get most of the targets. But when 3 targets are in window, Rampage can only sock one. And if they claim NToV and Tormax pops, grats BDA or some other guild.