Shadow knight aggro

[Crede]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Oh geez, DSM, I'm so sorry. I really didn't mean to hurt your feelings or make you think I was trolling yesterday. I got a little frustrated towards the end of the evening, and I was intemperate. I apologize.

I like you! We've played together in-game, and I sincerely admire your willingness to play in-game with people who yell at you on the forums. I've always strived to engage constructively with the argument at hand, and if sometimes I fall short of that standard, well, all I can do is humbly ask forgiveness.

Anyway, if your entire argument is disproving "spamming taunt provides no benefit," then we are in 100% agreement. It provides some benefit. Absolutely. I support your position wholly. It provides 10 hate/minute. There's no significant drawbacks. It is a viable strategy.

The rest of this post is not directed at DSM. This is to set out my position, which is on a completely separate topic. I'm not concerned so much with whether a given approach provides benefits or not, I'm concerned with what is optimal. Here, I define optimal as "the approach that results in the lowest frequency of occurrences where aggro flips and the first taunt does not succeed". I believe that on this metric, although both approaches are viable, the strategy-taunt approach is optimal.

He knows which is optimal, he just slowly shifted his goalposts to imply that the taunt spamming was a viable alternative, where initially he was more about suggesting to not even bother strategically taunting.

Nice work besting him btw, that was some legit math/logic. I knew he would just call you a troll after that response lol.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Oh geez, DSM, I'm so sorry. I really didn't mean to hurt your feelings or make you think I was trolling yesterday. I got a little frustrated towards the end of the evening, and I was intemperate. I apologize.

I like you! We've played together in-game, and I sincerely admire your willingness to play in-game with people who yell at you on the forums. I've always strived to engage constructively with the argument at hand, and if sometimes I fall short of that standard, well, all I can do is humbly ask forgiveness.

Anyway, if your entire argument is disproving "spamming taunt provides no benefit," then we are in 100% agreement. It provides some benefit. Absolutely. I support your position wholly. It provides 10 hate/minute. There's no significant drawbacks. It is a viable strategy.

The rest of this post is not directed at DSM. This is to set out my position, which is on a completely separate topic. I'm not concerned so much with whether a given approach provides benefits or not, I'm concerned with what is optimal. Here, I define optimal as "the approach that results in the lowest frequency of occurrences where aggro flips and the first taunt does not succeed". I believe that on this metric, although both approaches are viable, the strategy-taunt approach is optimal.

You didn't hurt my feelings, don't worry. As I have said before, I hold no grudges with anybody on these forums. I enjoyed playing with you too! I don't bring forum drama into the game, it is pointless.

Spamming taunt also provides the 8.33% bonus to taunt successfully, so it provides more value than just 10 hate/minute. I am not sure why people keep omitting that.

I agree with you that targeted taunting is more optimal for the first taunt specifically. After the first taunt (regardless of which method you are using) you have 6 seconds to change your taunting strategy however you need to, so the opportunity cost is minimal. You lose 1 taunt at worst, which should never be the doom of a group with a Knight who knows how to use snap agro.

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

He knows which is optimal, he just slowly shifted his goalposts to imply that the taunt spamming was a viable alternative, where initially he was more about suggesting to not even bother strategically taunting.

I never shifted the goalposts https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...9&postcount=14 you can see my position on page 2. It is the same as my position now. You are just salty that you cannot counter my points here: https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=140 I am not sure why you think you can fool people when the post history is there for everybody to see.

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nice work besting him btw, that was some legit math/logic. I knew he would just call you a troll after that response lol.

He didn't best me at all. His long post was completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. That is why it looks like a troll post. It is very nonsensical. Not trying to be mean here, but it's true.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Spamming taunt also provides the 8.33% bonus to taunt successfully, so it provides more value than just 10 hate/minute. I am not sure why people keep omitting that.

I won't speak for anyone else, but I gloss over it because as far as I can tell the quoted part only appllies to situations where the tank is being rather lazy and doesn't care much if something flips once in awhile. In more normal gameplay where you're holding aggro fulltime, the odds of the spammed taunt doing anything more than adding the +1, is essentially zero per cent. Maybe that's why I'm less hostile towards you, here, than some other posters: I'm not interpreting this type of taunt usage as something to do when you're acting as tank for content like chardok queen (which I've done, so between Snaggles and I, I guess that means we've done it all), but for when you're doing second-tier content you don't care about and putting in only cursory effort. You have to be losing aggro *a lot* for that ~8% chance to apply, which would normally be defined as poor gameplay for a knight, except where we're already aknowledging that it's more like lazymode.

For things like saving taunt for charm flips, taunt's more like a mana-saver for the knight than a life-saver for the enchanter. If your enchanter needs your taunt to work to save his bacon, he's already as good as dead, given taunt's failure rate. In practice you're using other spells too, and a taunt success means you don't need to cast as many to build a threat lead.

It all goes back to my first comment I made: In practice in a solo tank setting on a paladin/shadowknight you can get away with using taunt however you want because it's not that important a skill to begin with. Use it carefully, use it with wild abandon, use it for goofing off, take it off the bar, won't matter in the end.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not interpreting this type of taunt usage as something to do when you're acting as tank for content like chardok queen (which I've done, so between Snaggles and I, I guess that means we've done it all), but for when you're doing second-tier content you don't care about and putting in only cursory effort. You have to be losing aggro *a lot* for that ~8% chance to apply, which would normally be defined as poor gameplay for a knight, except where we're already aknowledging that it's more like lazymode.

This is correct. People seem to forget that this thread is asking about agro generation in general. OP did not ask "What is the optimal strategy for keeping agro on Chardok Queen?"

There is little opportunity cost in spamming taunt in most gameplay situations, since a properly played Knight shouldn't be losing agro often in the first place. Spamming taunt gives you a bit of free agro and a chance to taunt automatically if the mob does happen to lose agro on the rare occasion.

I am sure even the most experienced tank has accidentally blown taunt's cooldown in a critical scenario. This still isn't a big deal in the grand scheme of things. With taunt's 6 second cooldown and high failure rate, you would be planning on taunt's failure anyway. You wouldn't be pressing taunt on Chardok Queen and hinging your entire tanking strategy on the assumption of a success.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is correct. People seem to forget that this thread is asking about agro generation in general. OP did not ask "What is the optimal strategy for keeping agro on Chardok Queen?"

Forum participants have a tendency to assume discussion is aimed at the bleeding edge. It's why so many "raid considerations" bleed over into the lower-end part of the game. It's why you get players thinking that if Knights don't tank Avatar of War then they must not be able to tank in Unrest. Look at how you have another poster casually suggesting that most or all knights will be bagging their epic for other better 2-handers that are seemingly awarded at character creation. That kind of mindset is so far removed from the normal experience of the majority of players that it may as well come from another planet.

[Duik]

Bananas are a good source of potasium and good at measuring stuff. Its just math.
Now, imma wait to press that same button until the mob flips so im not accused of spamming it. Every six seconds.

[Snaggles]

I remember when DSM’s SK wasn’t even 60. Like 6 months ago? Now he’s giving tanking TED talks about level 1 skills you literally can just read about on the Wiki.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Skill_Taunt

My favourite part is now we have two categories of taunt usage like it’s the Metric and Imperial system. Also, people can switch between them as needed (validating the stupid one invented like 15 pages ago) like an ambidextrous athlete.

I’ll still likely put taunt on my bar. To a single hotkey with a /doability # and /cast 1 entry. I’m going to call this Macro Taunt. Please enter it as the third and most superior method. It’s the Venn Diagram between lazy and effective.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I remember when DSM’s SK wasn’t even 60. Like 6 months ago? Now he’s giving tanking TED talks about level 1 skills you literally can just read about on the Wiki.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Skill_Taunt

My favourite part is now we have two categories of taunt usage like it’s the Metric and Imperial system. Also, people can switch between them as needed (validating the stupid one invented like 15 pages ago) like an ambidextrous athlete.

I’ll still likely put taunt on my bar. To a single hotkey with a /doability # and /cast 1 entry. I’m going to call this Macro Taunt. Please enter it as the third and most superior method. It’s the Venn Diagram between lazy and effective.

You don't need all of your characters to be at level 60 to know how the game plays, or how a class works. Argument from authority is a fallacy. Getting to 60 on an SK isn't game changing like getting Torpor on a Shaman. My SK doesn't play significantly different at level 60. He was my first character on this server, I've played him for years. You also get taunt very early in the game, so you don't need to be level 60 to understand how taunt works.

I agree with you that basic concepts like taunt spamming shouldn't need to be explained with this level of detail. https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=140 this should be extremely obvious to anybody who has used taunt in a group before. Typically you are not using taunt only once if you lose agro. You only have a 50% chance of success at best. You lose one taunt in the worst case by spamming taunt.

It is very strange that people are getting angry that you can use taunt in two ways instead of one. It's baffling to me that this is a problem for people.

Spamming taunt would be beneficial in your case, since you don't even use taunt. You are getting nothing from the skill right now.

For your idea about combining taunt and your agro spell into one macro, just remember to not use that macro if you are already out of melee range. Otherwise you will just put taunt on cooldown when you start casting your agro spell. That only works when you are in melee range already.

I also didn't invent taunt spamming. I am pretty sure every tank in this thread spammed taunt to level it up lol. So congrats on being a fellow user of taunt spamming.

[Snaggles]

This is just classic MacroTaunt hate. Have fun having less aggro for more work and spending more mana on slower peels.

Your enchanters last words will be, “Blerg…why didn’t he just MacroTaunt and save me?”

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is just classic MacroTaunt hate. Have fun having less aggro for more work and spending more mana on slower peels.

Your enchanters last words will be, “Blerg…why didn’t he just MacroTaunt and save me?”

If you are relying on taunt as a Knight, your Enchanter is already screwed. Their last words will be "Why did he run over and start taunting furiously instead of casting snap agro?". Focus on your snap agro spells. Taunt is just a bonus.