ASOIAF / Game of Thrones (SPOILERS INSIDE)

[Sirken]

ToJ was Rhaegars happy place. he worshiped the 7, as did his wife. theres no reason to have a weirwood. and since ToJ is between Dorne and the Stormlands, we know the terrain is mostly mountains and desert.

surely anything is possible as none of us know enough about the ToJ, but i just think its very unlikely. im convinced Howland Reed is the only living person that knows what transpired at the ToJ on that day.

[Patriam1066]

Will check out those books, thanks for the recommendations. I have Name of the Wind in my car, I just haven't gotten around to reading it. Re-read the silmarilion here a while ago, then went into Isaac Asimov and Robert Heinlein. Still haven't read Dune and I hear that's a must too.

Haha PJ (preston jacobs) posted something about the great northern conspiracy... Coming from this guy this should be fucking good. I'm really glad I'm like 7 beers in after a bar night reading this, I love this guy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ1J...Wd6tAHYO8g9vAA

[Sirken]

yar, i saw that. tbh, i wasnt crazy about this video. but still entertaining [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] for example, i dont think cat wanted winterfell, i think she just didnt like Jon enough to support him. also Rickon, im convinced will be scooped up by davos, i dont think hes with Moors Umber. steak and kidney pie versus deer pie could easily be an author error, like certain people eye colors as well as the gender of Sandor Clegane's horse. and PJ cant really be right about davos bringing rickon to moors because all these things are happening at the same time as far as we know

edit- also the reason the umbers only have old men and young boys is because all the fighting men went south with the greatjon umber to fight with Robb.

[Mandalore93]

I highly doubt that Rickon's guide would have brought them to the Umbers, the major Stark bannerman closest to the wall and probably the most hostile to wildlings such as Osha. Unless she's been magically ditched.

My latest thinking on the series has been the probable inaccuracy of the strength of the Iron Islands and Robb's seeming inability to fight off what should have been an easy fight.

[Sirken]

Originally Posted by Mandalore93 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I highly doubt that Rickon's guide would have brought them to the Umbers, the major Stark bannerman closest to the wall and probably the most hostile to wildlings such as Osha. Unless she's been magically ditched.

My latest thinking on the series has been the probable inaccuracy of the strength of the Iron Islands and Robb's seeming inability to fight off what should have been an easy fight.

Mors Umber HATES the wildlings. Mors had two sons that both died in Roberts Rebellion. his last child was abducted by wildlings. Mors only swears fealty to Stannis after Stannis agrees to serve up Mance Rayder's skull to Mors after they kill him.

unless Osha turns out to be the abducted daughter of Mors, then i believe Mors would kill any wildling on sight. except Ygritte, because, well you know [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]


what do u mean about the iron islands? are u saying they should be stronger or weaker? cause remember they are just pillaging pirates that refuse to farm, trade, or raise livestock. and as far as Robb, which fight are you referring to? as far as i remember he never lost a battle. but he also never went up against another main host. it'd be like Tywin's host tearing through smaller stark forces that Robb was not leading.

<3

[Mandalore93]

They should be far weaker given the description of the Iron Islands as well as their geographic site. Given that Westeros from Dorne to the wall is about the size of South America for a rough scale estimate let's say that the Iron Isles are about the size of Cuba all put together (very generous estimate). There's really not a way I see them fielding 20,000 swords. This combined with the fact that the North still has aroun 15-25k men lying around combined with the fact that the Iron Born suck at organized land warfare indicates to me that the North should have been very easy to hold for Robb. There are quite a few lordly members who are ostensibly veterans of several wars lying around. The heir to a masterly house (Cerwyn) is also in the North during this time if I recall correctly. We know for a dead fact that there are at least 5,000 summonable soldiers just from two areas. 2k from around Winterfell (Source:Sack of Winterfell) and around 3,000 from the clans.

Robb over-rated as fuck. Tear that entire family down. But don't post that in reddit, you'll get like 50 downvotes for no reason other than the circle jerk.

[Sirken]

well, imo the Iron Islands are pretty weak. as far as their numbers, i dunno where u got the number 20,000, because that does seem a bit absurd, considering that'd be about the strength of the entire north, and equal to or greater than the south. i imagine that they are closer to 4,000-5,000 men. also remember, they are only really successful on the water. yes they took winterfell from a skeleton crew, but Asha says from the beginning they couldnt hold it, because its true, they cant. if they had 20,000 people, then they could hold winterfell np.

Robb was indeed surrounded by smart veterans, but he was too god damned retarded to listen to any of them. yes, he won all his battles, but Robb Stark made every possible bad decision that he could have possibly made. i know the reddit nerds loved him, but wtf, Robb wasn't even a PoV character, and he kept fucking up over and over again. it was only a matter of time imo.

[Mandalore93]

The twenty thousand figure is semi canon from a role playing game released a few years ago. That's about half the strength of the seven kingdoms on average. Most lord Paramount's can summon somewhere between forty and fifty thousand under optimal conditions. I think a more realistic figure for the iron isles is ten thousand. And that's like full mobilization, every man available type of deal. Which would make their invasion of the north a huge joke and plot hole in the story. We know for a fact that there are still explicitly at least six thousand men left in the north. And those are only numbers drawn from the mountain clans, the dread fort and the levies from winter fell and it's subject master houses.

[Mandalore93]

The other argument people put up is that there aren't any commanders available in the north to lead a host. But there are at least two members of House Umber who are older and probably veterans of two wars as well as at least one member of House Karstark, both lordly houses. Also, pretty sure that the heir of house Cerwyn is in the north during the invasion. But that's only a masterly house.

To summarize, iron born invasion is a poorly planned plot device.

[Sirken]

i wouldnt consider anything from any of the games canon. and as far as army size and numbers go, i found a really great piece talking about it. as far as leaders, Mors Umber or Roose Bolton can lead hosts for the north (depending who u are cheering for). as far as the iron islanders invading the north, they werent suppose to, that was Theon's bonehead idea.
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We've been running into some unavoidable problems with army size and numbers; this was obvious by the end of Season 1 but it has reverberated into a bigger impact now that the War of the Five Kings has started.

I think its really an "elephant in the room" situation, where the problem is obvious but it is difficult to tackle head-on and we didn't really want to admit that the problem existed.

All of this centers around how in Season 1, they changed the size of Robb Stark's army at Whispering Wood and doubled the overall size of the Lannister army from 30,000 to 60,000.

Rather than dance around saying what actually happened, it isn't that hard to put forward an educated guess.

Take the following assumptions:

A - Robb Stark's army is outnumbered two to one in his underdog victory at Whispering Wood.

B - The Lannister standing army in the Riverlands was divided into two roughly equal parts, Jaime in the west and Tywin in the east. (Thus Robb's armygroup at Whispering Wood is one fourth the size of the total Lannister standing army).

C - The Reach, being the most fertile and populous of the Seven Kingdoms, can field an army almost twice as large as two others combined, in the 60-70,000 range. Each of the other regions of the Seven Kindoms can, on average, field a total standing army numbering in the 20-30,000 range (Dorne probably the least; but the Lannisters easily had 30,000, the Starks 20,000. And this was without scraping the bottom of the barrel with young boys and old men).

( I did NOT write this page, this is my own adding to this persons thesis, after reading it. I have the read the books and think I can help explain some of why that is. The reason why Starks Army has grown in size from the time they left Moat Cailin was for 2 major reasons; 1 of which you all probably know already, Walder Frey handed over his 4,000 troops, minus 400 who would stay to guard the Twins and Robb left 400 of his own as well so that's 3,200 extra troops right there. And the other reason; after leaving the Twins to march South, their next stop was Seagard where they would meet with Lord Mallister and join forces with his men ((House Mallister)). House Mallister at Seagard was one of the few Riverlords of Riverrun who were not yet under siege by Lannister hosts. However, the books did not specifically mention exactly how many men the Mallister force consisted of. Then, Stark and his allies forces grew in number once again when they liberated the Riverlords who were under siege after defeating Jaime Lannisters host.)

What the TV show changed in Season 1, was that it seems they didn't want to have to complicate things and introduce Roose Bolton that early, and explain how he was commanding during the Battle of Green Fork. So instead of dividing Robb's army in half at the Twins (well, 16,000 infantry go east, 6,000 cavalry go west, cavalry count more), they truncate and condense the Battle of Green Fork by saying Robb just sent a feint force of 2,000 and they were annihilated. We later see Roose Bolton with Robb at Oxcross. I do believe that they're going to send Roose Bolton back east to take Harrenhal later this season, which while I wince at it, isn't too much of a stretch (no reason they can't go back the way they came, or rather, even in the books Robb left much of his strength under Edmure to hold the Red Fork; Roose himself riding alone could transfer east and take command of new troops, not necessarily march thousands of soldiers back east...but I digress...).

At any rate, the logical result of all of this is that they *directly state*, in dialogue, that Robb has 18,000 men at Whispering Wood. As a result of condensing the plot surrounding the Battle of Green Fork.

The problem is that this upsets assumptions A, B, and C, which are all about *relative* numbers. Robb's force at Whispering Wood has to be outnumbered two to one. If he's got 18,000 men, it doesn't make dramatic sense if Jaime still has the 15,000 from the books. Because Robb didn't divide his army in half at the Twins, but took essentially the whole army west and only sent a light screener force east as a feint. Thus, to maintain dramatic consistency, they state in dialogue that the standing Lannister army in the Riverands has accordingly been *doubled* in size, now giving Jaime 30,000 at Whispering Wood and restoring the proportion ("Assumption A": Robb was outnumbered two to one) between his army and Robb's (well, more or less). Given "Assumption B", this was "half" the Lannister army, which means Tywin also has 30,000, for a total of 60,000.

Now as the story expands and we have to deal with the Baratheons and Tyrells, it gets more complicated, due to "Assumption C", "the Reach's army should be twice as big as the Lannisters".

At first, I just assumed that they were going to consistently double *all* of the armies in Westeros -- why not? Until I realized this was done as a QUICK FIX due to condensing the Battle of Green Fork.

Because the actual aired information hasn't been consistent as a result, and hasn't doubled everything else to keep it proportionate:

Renly states that his combined Tyrell/Stormlands army is "100,000 strong"...which is the number in the books. 20-30 thousand Stormlands, 60-70 thousand Tyrells. They didn't double it up to "200,000", to maintain the point that the Reach has a bigger army than the Lannisters.

NOR* did they do this for Robb Stark and the North: they also had (well, roughly) 20,000 soldiers enter the Riverlands in the books.

So suddenly, Robb's forces in the Riverlands weren't outnumbered two to one (overall), but THREE to one.

So currently, this means Tywin at Harrenhal has 30,000 men as opposed to 20,000 in the books. I honestly think/hope that the Stark situation will get back in line by saying he sends Roose Bolton back east and splits his army giving half to Bolton -- they just wanted to wait until season 2 to introduce Bolton. And there's not MAJOR logical impossibility to saying he split up his army later, what with essentially controlling the Trident north of the Red Fork.

But you see, the whole thing has been thrown out of whack as a result, particularly for this wiki: everything else goes by book numbers, both Renly's army and Robb Stark's (overall) army, but the size of the Lannister army does not.

I've already seen edits from new anonymous users who take the point that "the Reach has twice as many soldiers as anyone else", and thus doubles up their army to Two Hundreds Thousand (200,000).

How are we going to address this?

I personally vote that, given the overall match to the books by the Starks and Baratheons (in terms of total army size), we should just make a note in articles that the Lannister army size is a mistake.

It wouldn't be the first time the show made a short-sighted mistake, due to limitations of time and budget. Let me stress that I love the job the TV creators have been doing, and they have to worry about the task at hand. In Season 1, I doubt they were happy about truncating the Battle of Green Fork given how this has a domino effect on what happens with Bolton and the eastern Stark cohort. But look at "Yara Greyjoy" -->Anyone reading the books would point out that "Osha the Wildling" isn't as big of a character as "Asha Greyjoy", and in ADVANCE, they should have renamed the Wildling girl "Yara" and retained "Asha Greyjoy". But they didn't anticipate that they'd give "Osha" more scenes to do; this was a late idea. Maybe it was a late change that they take much of Green Fork out.

So doubling the size of the Lannister army really screws up a lot of our numbers with regard to army size. I bring it up now not so much out of my own obsession, but because I've already seen multiple users not sure of what to do with these relative army sizes an numbers.

This is one of this major questions that someone with access to "the grapevine" and major fansites like Westeros.org, possibly those who have a chance to meet cast & crew in person, should get around to at some point, i.e. Benioff, Weiss, Cogman, even GRRM.

Because come the Battle of the Blackwater, if circa 30,000 Stormlands soldiers are fighting *30,000 men* under Tywin, why would the Lannisters particularly need the Tyrells? (to the point that they're increasingly dependent on the Tyrells by "A Feast for Crows", which became a MAJOR plot point).

And all because they had to condense the Battle of Green Fork, thus essentially doubling the size of Robb Stark's army at Whispering Wood.

(Sigh). For want of a nail...--The Dragon Demands 05:36, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

George R.R. Martin wrote "The Pointy End" which details the size of Robb's army and his ruse with the scout. Robb marches 18,000 northmen south but lets the scout report 20,000. After splitting his force at the twins he has 16,000 northmen plus Frey reinforcements. The show clearly states that the Lannister force with Tywin in "You Win or You Die" numbers 60,000 and he splits it in half.

I think you are incorrect about Robb being outnumbered 2:1 at the Whispering Wood. Remember that in the books Robb tackles Jaime's army in a series of battles beginning with the Battle of the Whispering Wood and leading into the Battle of the Camps. AWoIaF says that Robb had a few hundred men with him at the Whispering Wood to Jaime's thousands. AWoIaF says that Robb's force was a third of the size of the Lannister force in the Battle of the Camps. What are you basing assumption A on?

We don't need to assume for B. Tywin clearly lays out in dialogue his decision to split his 60,000 strong forces in two in "You Win or You Die."

Assumption C seems true for the books but this is a wiki about the show.

I don't think they directly state in dialogue that Robb has 18,000 at Whispering Wood. When and who? I think they establish that he had 18,000 before splitting his force but do not clearly say what size force he fights with at Whispering Wood.

I disagree that Robb's force at Whispering Wood "has to be outnumbered two to one". As I've said above the assumption doesn't seem to hold true to information from the books. The TV show is an adaptation and has clearly made major changes to these early battles in the war; Robb need not be outnumbered by the same ratio in individual battles as he was in the book.

The Stormlands/Reach army with Renly is established as 100,000 strong in dialogue. We don't know how many more are with Mace at Highgarden. We don't know if Renly has other armies like the Lannisters do. We can't assume what will happen to the army in future episodes. In the book Stannis obtains numbers from the Reach portion including the fleet of House Florent. I don't think you can assume even numbers at the Blackwater on the basis of Tywin's force being increased alone - we have no idea how many men Stannis is fielding in the show at this point and cannot assume how many will join him before the Blackwater. Even if your assumptions hold and the size of Tywin and Stannis's forces are equal forming an alliance with the Tyrell's and outnumbering Stannis more than 3:1 in the battle is hardly a bad thing for House Lannister!

The show establishes in "The North Remembers" that Robb has won 3 victories. Whispering Wood is 1. Camps might be 2. Who was he fighting in 3? He might have bled some of Tywin's men in a battle in the Riverlands. He has now won 4 victories including oxcross.

The show is detailed enough about this that it is clearly a major difference in the adaptation and I don't think we should consider that a mistake without an independent source clearly stating that it was an error.

How are we going to address this? I personally vote that, given the overall match to the books by the Starks and Baratheons (in terms of total army size), we should just make a note in articles that the Lannister army size is a mistake.|The Dragon Demands}}

I strongly disagree with this proposal for two reasons. Firstly I don't think we should leap to assuming error, particularly on the basis of the flawed assumptions you have stated. Secondly I don't think we should put our speculation into our articles; we need reliable third party sources for this kind of thing. We should report the information that the show presents and offer comparison to the source material in the "In the books" section. I think a series of blogs speculating further about this are appropriate without sources but we should be very careful about stating that the show has made an error without reliable third party sources to back our assertion.--Opark 77 07:57, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

I would love to see this explored in an interview with the writing staff but fear that they would see it as nitpicking.--Opark 77 08:05, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

While I'm on the subject, we should really remove the "army size" entry from the template for Great Houses and Regions: it isn't actually informative. So what if the North has an army of "20,000"? It's even been a stated plot point in season 2 that almost all of those 20,000 are in the Riverlands now, leaving the North wide open to the Ironborn. What good does "overall standing army" size do? Were we planning on updating this on an episode by episode basis? Yes, there is and should be a "military strength" category on say, "The Reach"....pointing out that *in general*, historically, they tend to have an army twice as big as any other. But it really shouldn't be part of the infobox. --The Dragon Demands 05:36, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. It is informative and removing it makes the article less informative. It is interesting to note the size of a region's army. The infobox should present the factual data within the article in a summary style so I'm happy with it being in the infobox if it is in the military strength section.--Opark 77 07:57, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

Stannis has the largest army after Renly's bannermen joined him.
Commander19907 08:29, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

Stannis blatantly does not have the largest army after Renly's bannermen joined him. Renly had 100,000...of which two-thirds serve House Tyrell and didn't join Stannis. He did instantly go from having a mere 5,000 to some 20-30,000 men, enough to attack King's Landing and drastically outnumber the small garrison left behind there (the bulk of the Lannister army is with Tywin in the Riverlands). --The Dragon Demands 18:56, May 19, 2012 (UTC)