most underpowered class in game?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People overestimate the importance of harmony to rangers in group. It’s pretty easy to pull with root, root a second, snare one of the rooted and run the remaining mob to camp, snaring the fourth if there is one.

This creates a steady stream of mobs which arrive in camp at a fair pace with a good chunk hate already on a tank. It essentially creates a series of single pulls which pull them selfs allowing the ranger to spend more time in camp DPSing.

The point of this thread isn't to claim any class is unplayable, and I think a lot of people are taking it that way. I understand why, since everybody has a favorite class.

All classes are playable on P99 today, and each class can do some pretty cool stuff when you become adept at playing them. The point of this thread is simply to determine which class is the most underpowered. That doesn't mean bad/unplayable, it just means worse compared to other classes.

The problem with Ranger is some of their best spells are outdoor only, and they were designed to be played outdoors. This means on average a Shadowknight/Paladin is going to be more useful in a group, because they don't have that restriction. This is especially true considering a lot of higher traffic zones are indoors.

That doesn't mean Rangers can't do well in Dungeons, it just means they have a inherit disadvantage that they can't get around.

[Jibartik]

harmony pulling in crushbone, cazic, msitmoore, is great fun, but from that point forward you gotta wait till kunark to do it again like the old days

[Danth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

...This means on average...

Now there's a word that makes for a possibly interesting tangent: average.

Harmony doesn't work indoors. It's by design kind of overpowered for split pulling outdoors. On average that limitation should then mean it's a good character ability overall since the times it's OP should average out the times it's unavailable. In actual practice not many groups are going to invite a ranger in lower guk due to his harmony being great outside so maybe we need the mode instead of the mean. We see some of this sort of thing with some other classes as well, like paladins and clerics with their anti-undead utility.

As you say, it's a vast game and about everyone has a niche someplace. Worst overall definitely doesn't equate to useless either in theory or in practice.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Now there's a word that makes for a possibly interesting tangent: average.

Harmony doesn't work indoors. It's by design kind of overpowered for split pulling outdoors. On average that limitation should then mean it's a good character ability overall since the times it's OP should average out the times it's unavailable. In actual practice not many groups are going to invite a ranger in lower guk due to his harmony being great outside so maybe we need the mode instead of the mean. We see some of this sort of thing with some other classes as well, like paladins and clerics with their anti-undead utility.

As you say, it's a vast game and about everyone has a niche someplace. Worst overall definitely doesn't equate to useless either in theory or in practice.

Danth

The problem is simply that the distribution of good outdoor zones to good indoor zones is skewed heavily in favor of indoor zones. So while yes we definitely need Rangers/Druids to harmony some monsters, in the main a Paladin is going to be a lot more useful on average, due to having a general lull. A Paladin's anti-undead capabilities aren't actually that great. Their power comes from having a general lull on par with an Enchanter's. And Shadowknights have a close equivalent, which is FD pulling. Rangers sadly cannot use their lull in the majority of popular zones, which means they are below average, even after considering Harmony's superiority in the cases it is used. It's the same issue with Magicians. COTH is an amazing ability. Sadly it just isn't used enough to make Mages a great class on P99.

[Vivitron]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I agree. If OP was specifically asking what class he should roll on P99 for grouping purposes, Wizard would be dead last on my list. But since OP's question was pretty generic, the theoretical portion of the question is open as far as I am concerned. It is a little more interesting of a conversation as well.

From a pure stigma perspective the worst classes on P99 are Ranger and Wizard, with Mage, Druid, Shadowknight, and Paladin as honorable mentions. Bard as well unless you are great at the class. If you don't want a stigma attached to your class on P99, avoid Ranger, Wizard, Mage, Druid, Shadowknight, Paladin, and Bard.

I haven't felt this anti-mage stigma before; I think it's mostly coming from you[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by Keebz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My biggest complaint with ranger is that 1-60 you get used to doing all the things all the time, then when you get to raiding, you just auto-attack for the most part. Kind of a big switcheroo. Though, the same can be said about many classes I suppose.

If not classes then class+encounter combos. From my bard/enchanter perspective most of ToV is the worst for reducing my roles. At least we can bind sight.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The point of this thread isn't to claim any class is unplayable, and I think a lot of people are taking it that way. I understand why, since everybody has a favorite class.

All classes are playable on P99 today, and each class can do some pretty cool stuff when you become adept at playing them. The point of this thread is simply to determine which class is the most underpowered. That doesn't mean bad/unplayable, it just means worse compared to other classes.

The problem with Ranger is some of their best spells are outdoor only, and they were designed to be played outdoors. This means on average a Shadowknight/Paladin is going to be more useful in a group, because they don't have that restriction. This is especially true considering a lot of higher traffic zones are indoors.

That doesn't mean Rangers can't do well in Dungeons, it just means they have a inherit disadvantage that they can't get around.

What I’m trying to say is generally harmony is a crutch, the rangers spectrum of movement control spells split up mobs is far better than harmony. In Kc i’d often not have harmony memmed, for example. The spell that I missed indoors was wolf form, but considering many dps insta click off wolf form, maybe it is just me that values those kind of spells so highly.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Vivitron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I haven't felt this anti-mage stigma before; I think it's mostly coming from you[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]



If not classes then class+encounter combos. From my bard/enchanter perspective most of ToV is the worst for reducing my roles. At least we can bind sight.

Lol don't get me wrong, I think Mages are a fun class. They simply aren't as good as other classes. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't play them.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What I’m trying to say is generally harmony is a crutch, the rangers spectrum of movement control spells split up mobs is far better than harmony. In Kc i’d often not have harmony memmed, for example. The spell that I missed indoors was wolf form, but considering many dps insta click off wolf form, maybe it is just me that values those kind of spells so highly.

I think it is a little silly to say Harmony is a crutch. I don't think Lulls or Feign Death are a crutch for pulling.

Any class can pull. Depending on how well you know the zone, you could even pull fairly well. But most people would still prefer using a safer method for pulling, because death is highly disruptive to the leveling process.

When you take away Harmony from Rangers, they aren't any different from a Wizard in terms of pulling. A Wizard could use snares and roots to accomplish the same thing you are describing. Wizards can also get instant agro with Staff of Temperate Flux.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The problem is simply that the distribution of good outdoor zones to good indoor zones is skewed heavily in favor of indoor zones.

It is, albeit the power of those types of spells tends to make those classes a bit self-selecting in terms of hanging out more where those spells work so that counter-skews the average some. Same as how on my Paladin I much favored hanging out in lower guk than sol-B because it's so much more convenient getting around with invis to undead than with calm.

As for Call of the Hero, it's so good I call it a character-killer: A straight majority of level 55+ magicians I know end up being parked in strategic locations due to that spell, no longer (or seldom) used for regular gameplay. If there's such a thing as a too-strong ability, that must be exhibit "A" because few other abilities kill characters in that manner.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It is, albeit the power of those types of spells tends to make those classes a bit self-selecting in terms of hanging out more where those spells work so that counter-skews the average some. Same as how on my Paladin I much favored hanging out in lower guk than sol-B because it's so much more convenient getting around with invis to undead than with calm.

As for Call of the Hero, it's so good I call it a character-killer: A straight majority of level 55+ magicians I know end up being parked in strategic locations due to that spell, no longer (or seldom) used for regular gameplay. If there's such a thing as a too-strong ability, that must be exhibit "A" because few other abilities kill characters in that manner.

Danth

When figuring out generally the most underpowered class, we have to look beyond one-off abilities that are extremely useful in a handful of situations. If that was the criteria, then no class would be underpowered. Every class in the game has at least one situation where they are amazing. In the general context of "most underpowered", you need to look at the game as a whole to determine which classes struggle in general more than others due to their specific toolkit.

In general, Mages are used as CoTH bots as you describe. But it is not because CoTH is so good that it trumps a Mage's other abilities. It is because CoTH is one of the only good abilities they have. If Mages had other great abilities, you would see Mages being used in more situations. Unfortunately a big chunk of a Mage's toolkit is their pets, which cannot be used in many situations due to poor pathing. Another big chunk of a Mage's toolkit is summoned items. Most of those items are not useful on a server where the population knows everything, and good gear is easily accessible. Their third chunk of abilities are DDs, which are inferior to a Wizards. And their Mala is inferior to a Shamans. This is why on P99 Mages struggle. Most of their kit is either not used, or inferior to other classes. They also don't have much in the ways of CC, which further lowers their utility.