Sirken's proposal

[Hitpoint]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Everything I'm seeing from the hardcore camp entails "competition." The casuals do not want competition, especially at the level historically defined by TMO. As a casual, I feel like every raid proposal from hardcores is attempting to justify their ideal of competition by forcing it on the casuals. I feel suppression of the casuals is what hardcores want, it provides the justification for the inordinate amount of time spent in the game. Deru is right, it is work, but its not "Classic" work, it was artificially created by Project1999-specific mechanics.

To me, a casual is someone who doesn't have the time or motivation to be so heavily committed to a game. To most of the people on this server, "casual" seems to be anyone not in a top raiding guild. I think the use of the words casual and hardcore are ridiculous at this point.

"Casuals" do not want competition? No, players who do not want competition, do not want competition. We have a vast majority of "casuals" in tier 1 guilds. That is, players with families and lives and responsibilities. They choose to spend their EQ time tracking or raiding rather than leveling alts, farming, or doing whatever the people that YOU call "casuals" do.

I play this game A LOT. But I've never had more than 30k in the bank. You should ask some of your "casuals" how much plat they have. The ones who can afford fungi tunics, hiero cloaks and epic MQs. I see TONS of people who are in "casual" guilds that are completely decked out in best in slot purchased gear. I have one level 60 and one alt that is 57. I bet a lot of the "casuals" in your guild have much more than that.

Nothing about being "casual" stops you from raiding. Certainly not the ability to devote time to a game. The decision to spend your EQ time elsewhere is what stops you from raiding. This means you value one aspect of the game over a different one. If you want a rotation on raids, then why shouldn't I ask for an official rotation in crypt camp or chardok aoe or whatever it is that you spend your EQ time doing? It makes just about as much sense.

[Tanthallas]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Dolic,
I am under the impression the raid agreement will be carried over into Velious. Why would you pour a shitty foundation now to put the house of Velious upon when you can lay a good foundation for a sturdy Velious? Or would you rather CSR raid suspends everyone again at Velious release so we can hash this out all over again? Now I'll concede you and I have different definitions of a "good foundation", but I hope we can both agree we'd only like to do it once.

Flippie,
Where did I discuss your proposal (especially in that quote)? You state focusing on the past is not good for negotiating. I'm saying tier2 is not here for a "pound of flesh." As Loraen said in the Raid forums, hardcores want 100% FFA, casuals want 100% rotation. A true compromise is the Rogean proposal at 50/50, two separate little playgrounds. The Divinity proposal, especially with excluded VP, is stacked in favor of the hardcores, but still with two little playgrounds.

Everything I'm seeing from the hardcore camp entails "competition." The casuals do not want competition, especially at the level historically defined by TMO. As a casual, I feel like every raid proposal from hardcores is attempting to justify their ideal of competition by forcing it on the casuals. I feel suppression of the casuals is what hardcores want, it provides the justification for the inordinate amount of time spent in the game. Deru is right, it is work, but its not "Classic" work, it was artificially created by Project1999-specific mechanics.

Seriously, for the last time - my proposal does not subject anyone to unwanted competition. It is progression based and structured in terms of tiers wherein guilds can move between tiers extremely easily. There would be tiered rotations and the tiers themselves would not be difficult to bounce between. There would be no tier locking, and guilds could opt out of tier1 to be in tier 2 at the beginning of every month. Both tiers would have half the month of rotating within their respective tiers, and half the month of complete FFA.

You and the rainbow crew, however, did not want to talk about that. You wanted to talk about any possible off the wall and completely erroneous interpretation of it that would limit you in relation to 'us'. Any weight you '7/9' heroes may have had is completely and utterly destroyed at this point because the people paying attention are pretty well aware of the true colors of your intent of 'negotiating'.

FE is fully behind Sirkens proposal at this point, because there is no sense in trying to 'negotiate' with people who think they have some kind of leverage that they do not. Stop being delusional and we can maybe avoid going back to how things used to be.

[Hitpoint]

Originally Posted by Droog007 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Most of us checked out of your stupid "competition" after a very brief exposure to it.

Then you don't like raiding. I do. Lets agree to disagree.

What did you win, really? Now you're finding out what baggage it came with.

I had fun.

Baggage? The only thing I hate about this is how far it has been allowed to go. I was fine when our very first proposal was drafted and posted on our guild forums. The one that gave up lots of mobs every month, and attempted to make the server's raid scene better for everyone else. This all happened the day before it was announced that we had to do this under threat of suspension. Yes that's right; FE officers, IB officers, and TMO officers agreed to that proposal on their own, without GMs forcing them to. Now every other guild is just trying to get as much as they possibly can with disregard to what's fair.

[Arteker]

Originally Posted by Hitpoint [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To me, a casual is someone who doesn't have the time or motivation to be so heavily committed to a game. To most of the people on this server, "casual" seems to be anyone not in a top raiding guild. I think the use of the words casual and hardcore are ridiculous at this point.

"Casuals" do not want competition? No, players who do not want competition, do not want competition. We have a vast majority of "casuals" in tier 1 guilds. That is, players with families and lives and responsibilities. They choose to spend their EQ time tracking or raiding rather than leveling alts, farming, or doing whatever the people that YOU call "casuals" do.

I play this game A LOT. But I've never had more than 30k in the bank. You should ask some of your "casuals" and ask how much they have. The ones who can afford fungi tunics, hiero cloaks and epic MQs. I see TONS of people who are in "casual" guilds that are completely decked out in best in slot purchased gear.

Nothing about being "casual" stops you from raiding. Certainly not the ability to devote time to a game. The decision to spend your EQ time elsewhere is what stops you from raiding. This means you value one aspect of the game over a different one. If you want a rotation on raids, then why shouldn't I ask for an official rotation in crypt camp or chardok aoe or whatever it is that you spend your EQ time doing? It makes just about as much sense.

agree 100%.

Btw whats the difference btw mass pps farming to get decked in gear and raidin for it both very time consuming .
Back in the day tmo have a hugue proposal of a insane ammount of cash by one of the main defender tier 2 guild about purchasing one robe from pd.

the offer was there as a raider i feel insulted by the fact someone got time to farm and offer 1 millon plat for a item and then cry in forums about casual vs raider people .

[Mezzmur]

Originally Posted by Hitpoint [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Then you don't like raiding. I do. Lets agree to disagree.



I had fun.

Baggage? The only thing I hate about this is how far it has been allowed to go. I was fine when our very first proposal was drafted and posted on our guild forums. The one that gave up lots of mobs every month, and attempted to make the server's raid scene better for everyone else. This was the day before Sirken posted that we had to do this under threat of suspension. Yea, our officers IB officers, and TMO officers agreed to that proposal on their own, without GMs forcing them. Now every other guild is just trying to get as much as they possibly can with disregard to what's fair.

Fair != 50/50 Split (yes) ///////////// Fair == 50/50 (no)

That seems to be the problem. Deru & Sirken tried to address that, but was scoffed by several individuals in the raid discussion forums.

[Rhambuk]

Originally Posted by Hitpoint [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Then you don't like raiding. I do. Lets agree to disagree.

It's not really fair to say someone doesn't like raiding because of the p99 raid scene, its not even remotely close to classic. For someone brand new to the server reading that its supposed to be as classic as possible and then seeing how the raid scene works it would blow their mind.

its a mess....it was NEVER supposed to be like this and its why there's a suspension right now to try and fix it.

[Droog007]

Originally Posted by Hitpoint [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To me, a casual is someone who doesn't have the time or motivation to be so heavily committed to a game. To most of the people on this server, "casual" seems to be anyone not in a top raiding guild. I think the use of the words casual and hardcore are ridiculous at this point.

"Casuals" do not want competition? No, players who do not want competition, do not want competition. We have a vast majority of "casuals" in tier 1 guilds. That is, players with families and lives and responsibilities. They choose to spend their EQ time tracking or raiding rather than leveling alts, farming, or doing whatever the people that YOU call "casuals" do.

I play this game A LOT. But I've never had more than 30k in the bank. You should ask some of your "casuals" and ask how much they have. The ones who can afford fungi tunics, hiero cloaks and epic MQs. I see TONS of people who are in "casual" guilds that are completely decked out in best in slot purchased gear.

Nothing about being "casual" stops you from raiding. Certainly not the ability to devote time to a game. The decision to spend your EQ time elsewhere is what stops you from raiding. This means you value one aspect of the game over a different one. If you want a rotation on raids, then why shouldn't I ask for an official rotation in crypt camp or chardok aoe or whatever it is that you spend your EQ time doing? It makes just about as much sense.

That's all well and good - and it warms my heart to hear how you're so fucking poor.

However - the simple fact is that these "hardcore" efforts have created a game that almost nobody actually wants to play (and most simply refuse), and creates headache for the staff. This much is known. The hardcore wouldn't soften up by choice ... so now it's time for a cold shower.

[Autotune]

You guys are getting closer and closer to what I proposed.

I give it another day or two.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Fael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Deajay,

Im not sure how rogean's statement of intent: to let casuals have items that tier 1 guilds "don't absolutely need" fit into velious raiding. If youre suggesting that FE/TMO/IB's consent to casual proposals contemplates that casuals will get 50% of king tormax spawns on day 1, then I think we can all agree you are asking quite a bit more than we ever thought.

Dolic

This^

None of these proposals should carry on to velious. They are designed to alleviate the tension of a 3 year kunark grind. Velious solves most of these problems by itself.

[Fael]

On that note. I think sirken's proposal should include tier 2 guilds abstaining from fungi king, crypt, HS south and east, and rage fire during the first 8 days of the month!!!

Dolic