Any good guides for GINA?

[kylok]

If you're attempting to compel me to research this you won't - I don't care. Here's a similar example however, regarding something I do/did care about. I came upon the mechanic described here Bind Wound in Combat before this thread was made. I reported it as an exploit, was told by management to find evidence that the mechanic behaved differently than it currently does on the server. I could not find such evidence. Does it seem like it's counter to the intended use? Yes. Does it provide an advantage to a player who knows this over one who doesn't? Absolutely! Could I prove it? No. So it's still in game.

[dekova]

Originally Posted by kylok [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you're attempting to compel me to research this you won't - I don't care. Here's a similar example however, regarding something I do/did care about. I came upon the mechanic described here Bind Wound in Combat before this thread was made. I reported it as an exploit, was told by management to find evidence that the mechanic behaved differently than it currently does on the server. I could not find such evidence. Does it seem like it's counter to the intended use? Yes. Does it provide an advantage to a player who knows this over one who doesn't? Absolutely! Could I prove it? No. So it's still in game.

Actually, I think bind wounds in combat has been disabled on green.

[kylok]

Originally Posted by dekova [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Actually, I think bind wounds in combat has been disabled on green.

Just tested on beta, still works exactly as it did when I reported it.

[Izmael]

Can we just ban GINA and move on?

[Vexenu]

Bind Wound in combat is actually a good example. Trying to "prove" that combat Bind Wound did not exist back in the day is basically impossible, just like it's impossible to prove that GINA did not exist. Because in both cases the best evidence that neither existed is the sheer absence of evidence that either did.

For example, my first EQ character was a Human Monk created shortly after Kunark released. I used to spend a ton of time browsing the old Monkly Business forums to learn about the class. There was an enormous amount of time and effort the Monk community put into testing and aggregating data about the best ways to play a Monk, from pulling to DPSing to soloing. Bind Wound was always emphasized as a core skill, especially for soloing Monks. And soloing itself was heavily discussed, with various techniques (i.e. whether or not to use Instill Doubt/Intimidation while soloing), specific zone and efficiently soloable mobs always hot topics.

And yet this combat bind wound macro, which is literally the single most powerful solo tactic for a melee class, was NEVER mentioned. Not once. You will find no mention of it in any classic-era forum posts. And yet according to the rules of evidence, this is not sufficient proof to declare that it did not exist. We're in a similar spot with GINA. I think everyone recognizes that nothing like the current incarnation of GINA existed in classic, and yet we cannot prove that categorically, because it's very difficult if not impossible to prove a negative of this type.

[Mblake81]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Bind Wound in combat is actually a good example. Trying to "prove" that combat Bind Wound did not exist back in the day is basically impossible, just like it's impossible to prove that GINA did not exist.

Well, no. If GINA was created for windows framework 4.0 it did in fact not exist in the era we are playing. So unless there is a reference I missed on his forums site then i would say GINA itself did not exist.

A program like GINA *could* have existed but no one except for one player here has mentioned it. That is because he wrote an "accurate but questionable" program that he used for personal use because "it wasn't good enough to share or sell". We wouldn't find this program on a website or a forum because it wasn't shared, so far only one guy would have used it and claims such.

Originally Posted by dekova [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah, the stuff I coded was way too janky to share and/or sell, even if I ever wanted to. I think the text strings it looked for were mostly hardcoded; I don't know that I even had an understanding of regex then.

The thing is, there is really nothing hard about programming a log reader. Displaying data may be a bit harder, but even in 1999 you could have done it all - soup to nuts - in something as simple as microsoft excel or access. Saying that I was some kind of prodigy because - out of the million or so EQ players - I was the only one with the insight or talent to do this is flattering but very likely inaccurate.

GINA looks to have been put in after the Velious era, this is not totally certain as I have not scoured the GINA forum for an exact date.

[dekova]

Originally Posted by Mblake81 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well, no. If GINA was created for windows framework 4.0 it did in fact not exist in the era we are playing. So unless there is a reference I missed on his forums site then i would say GINA itself did not exist.

A program like GINA *could* have existed but no one except for one player here that I just made a response to has mentioned it. That is because he wrote an "accurate but questionable" program that he used for personal use because "it wasn't good enough to share or sell". We wouldn't find this program on a website or a forum because it wasn't shared, so far only one guy would have used it and claims such.

GINA looks to have been put in after the Velious era, this is not totally certain as I have not scoured the GINA forum for an exact date.

I don't know if this adds much to the conversation, but I was making a pretty comfortable living at the time as a consultant in NYC (don't be too impressed, with Y2K, anyone with any skill was getting work). If I had found something commercially available, I certainly would have bought it instead of rolling my own.

But really guys, writing something to display timers based on a stuff in a text file takes near to no skill at all. Even back in 1999, it could literally be a "learn to code" project that you would tackle after hello world. Saying that nobody but me thought of it or had the capability is a really, really big stretch.

[Mblake81]

Originally Posted by dekova [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't know if this adds much to the conversation, but I was making a pretty comfortable living at the time as a consultant in NYC (don't be too impressed, with Y2K, anyone with any skill was getting work). If I had found something commercially available, I certainly would have bought it instead of rolling my own.

But really guys, writing something to display timers based on a stuff in a text file takes near to no skill at all. Even back in 1999, it could literally be a "learn to code" project that you would tackle after hello world. Saying that nobody but me thought of it or had the capability is a really, really big stretch.

You have made two posts now trying to calm me down because of how excited you think I am about your skills.

Careful, friend. Before I start smelling troll blood. You shouldn't have to do this.

[Vexenu]

Correct, I should have said "a GINA-like program" rather than GINA itself. I'm just saying that it's unfair to shift the burden of proof to those of us who claim that nothing like this existed back then. Because proving that is basically impossible. But proving it DID exist should be much easier if it did, because the evidence for such a useful program should be extensive and well-documented. Just like it would be for something as useful as combat bind wound. But we don't find either documented historically during the classic era.

[Mblake81]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Correct, I should have said "a GINA-like program" rather than GINA itself. I'm just saying that it's unfair to shift the burden of proof to those of us who claim that nothing like this existed back then. Because proving that is basically impossible. But proving it DID exist should be much easier if it did, because the evidence for such a useful program should be extensive and well-documented. Just like it would be for something as useful as combat bind wound. But we don't find either documented historically during the classic era.

Yes, I agree. There should be more than one guy stepping forward making the claim that not only did he use one but he also wrote one and used it on a second computer (after someone asked how they displayed it since EQ could not be windowed..)

There are plenty of in era players on this forum, he shouldn't be the only one saying he did. Not just a vague "well those things existed and GINA could have been used".