When are they Implementing the Charm Nerf?

[enjchanter]

If youre not charm soloing as an enchanter, then thats just ape behavior tbf

[Botten]

The real problem is Enchanters are soloing a high stat gear drop dungeon like Chardok.

While it is great to get an item for CHEAP on the market from this dungeon; it absolutely sucks to take a group here with their trains, their claim to pit for KM and the zone picked dry of named by this type of toxic soloing (often take multiple camps).

Duo enchanters shouldn't be able to take King after illusion bugging through the door.

Charm on live was nerfed after Legacy of Steel managed to take down Avatar easily sending wave after wave of charmed mobs. Pretty much trivializing it. They got a warning for that and Charm was changed.

I don't see any reason charm can not be fine tuned again for P99.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by enjchanter [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If youre not charm soloing as an enchanter, then thats just ape behavior tbf

I agree. So either the vast majority of Enchanter players on live were apes (but players of every other class knew how to play that class just as well as they do on P99), or ... our emulator isn't emulating charm properly.

[Tann]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I agree. So either the vast majority of Enchanter players on live were apes (but players of every other class knew how to play that class just as well as they do on P99), or ... our emulator isn't emulating charm properly.

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[Elizondo]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I agree. So either the vast majority of Enchanter players on live were apes (but players of every other class knew how to play that class just as well as they do on P99), or ... our emulator isn't emulating charm properly.

They just didn't play the class back then the way they are played now

Good enchanters back then could lock down trains. They mezed and buffed.

Charming wasn't a thing back in Classic Era. At least it wasn't how the class was generally played. Sure, there may have been a few one offs here and there but chanters back then stacked INT. Not CHA.

Chanter play on P99 was a revolution that completely changed the way the class is played. It amazes me nobody understands this. Look at the way good chanters play. You're endlessly swapping out multiple spells per fight. The way the class is played has simply evolved. It's tools have been maximized. It's not easy though. It's a chore. A lazy enchanter is a dead enchanter.

I see a lot of players dump coin into gearing chanters thinking they are going to walk into a dungeon God Mode. They get wrecked and lose interest because they read the forums and thought they could solo insane mobs with ease. It's a slog. You don't even feel like a chanter until level 29. 1-12 is absolutely horrible. You get your first charm at 12 and besides a few select camps where you pull pairs it's not great.

I dunno, the people in this thread calling for chanters to be nerfed don't seem like they've ever played the class at a high level. Charm is not the only reason chanters can take out tough mobs. It's also rune and slow. They can rune their pet and slow it's target. No other class has anything close to that.

Charm shouldn't be nerfed. Players just got better and more clever.

I prefer necro charming anyways. Way more fun.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Elizondo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They just didn't play the class back then the way they are played now

Good enchanters back then could lock down trains. They mezed and buffed.

Charming wasn't a thing back in Classic Era. At least it wasn't how the class was generally played. Sure, there may have been a few one offs here and there but chanters back then stacked INT. Not CHA.

100% agree, except I've dug into classic sources and Enchanters absolutely did charm back in classic ... they were just the very clear minority. Plenty of others tried charming, but found that it was too risky, and grouping was much faster XP.

Originally Posted by Elizondo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Chanter play on P99 was a revolution that completely changed the way the class is played.

See, this is where I get lost. If this was the same game as back in '99 it'd be impossible to "change how the class is played". Literally more than ten times as many Enchanters played on live as do here. It makes zero logical sense that ten times as many players wouldn't figure out how to play the class, but a few geniuses at P99 would.

The "Occam's razor" (ie. simplest) answer isn't that 1/10th of the players magically learned how to play better than 10x that number on live, playing for two years ... it's that the emulator's rules changed from live. And again, no other class magically changed how it's played the way Enchanters (and to a lesser extent other charm classes) have.

[pasi]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I can’t remember the name of the trial but think that run in Gates of Discord you has to do with a single group with the ass-beater mob that could and would trash a defensive warrior that wasn’t raid geared to the 9s. Having a charmed dog thingy meant you only had to survive the brutality for a few short seconds because the hasted dog would rip it in half.

Probably talking about Tipt or Vxed. Though charm was certainly abused in other zones, those two had a big safety net.

To piggyback on the rest of your points, the majority of even the raiding playerbase was not 60 / level-capped until Luclin. Even the hardcore guilds were mostly composed of sub60s in Velious. Let alone 60s with their rare Kunark spells. Level differences make a huge difference in terms of landing spells, attacks, etc.

Take a look at the original casters realm epic guides, you'll see guides recommending multiple groups of players for low to mid 50s epic mobs that easily are soloable/duoable/trioable in Kunark era.

Project1999 is going on 13 years old. To put that into the timeline of EQ Live, EQ would be well into it's 18th expansion: Veil of Alaris. And even with P1999, there was years of optimization/metagaming that carried into 2009. We knew bards could AE kite and outlevel anyone despite a large exp penalty. We knew 3 50 mages and a cleric could kill Nagafen. We knew whirl was broken. We knew you could just use hoops to trivialize any 32K HP mob. We knew you could use mallets in lieu of waiting for a tank to establish aggro. Take all that and add 13 more years of people figuring shit out.

1999-2001 was a completely different era of gaming. The vast majority of players were terrible in comparison to private servers. You won't get the genie back in the bottle here. You're playing an emulator of something 20 years old with mostly people who have a decade or more experience. Give these same people countless guides, videos, wikis/spoilers, whatever. Contrast that with a player base of varying levels of engagement (i.e. more casuals checking out what their friends are playing), a max of 1-2 years experience, and prima strategy guides.

This isn't anything unique to P99/Everquest. The same shit occurred with World of Warcraft. You had optimized players doing 300% of what they were doing in 2004-2006. Several years past the infamous Science of War (~2003) rant expressing nostalgia for the era of EQ before the powergaming/optimization.

[Elizondo]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

100% agree, except I've dug into classic sources and Enchanters absolutely did charm back in classic ... they were just the very clear minority. Plenty of others tried charming, but found that it was too risky, and grouping was much faster XP.

They didn't charm back then the way they do now. You don't keep the pet charmed for long when reverse charming. Charming (the few who did) was done to keep the pet as long as possible until it broke then everyone beat it down.

Strategies like reverse charming, stacking CHA (INT is an afterthought for chanters on P99) carrying around -MR gear, runing pet and slowing your target, clumping/conga lines ect. were all play styles developed by players on P99

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

See, this is where I get lost. If this was the same game as back in '99 it'd be impossible to "change how the class is played". Literally more than ten times as many Enchanters played on live as do here. It makes zero logical sense that ten times as many players wouldn't figure out how to play the class, but a few geniuses at P99 would.

Not everyone approaches the game the same way and utilizes the tools the exact same way. I've already explained how players on P99 maximized the class strengths by creating tactics that maximizes charm's effectiveness. You're giving way too much credit to people that played back then. Most were barely average players who mostly socialized in the game. 90% of the P99 population are hardcore players who have been playing the game for 20 years. The skill gap is a canyon.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The "Occam's razor" (ie. simplest) answer isn't that 1/10th of the players magically learned how to play better than 10x that number on live, playing for two years ... it's that the emulator's rules changed from live. And again, no other class magically changed how it's played the way Enchanters (and to a lesser extent other charm classes) have.

Completely disagree. Chanters sacrifice a lot of their potential mana pool to charm and most of their sanity hot swapping spells during routine fights. It's simply a different play style maximizing mechanics that have always been there but not thoroughly explored like they been on P99

[Jibartik]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I agree. So either the vast majority of Enchanter players on live were apes (but players of every other class knew how to play that class just as well as they do on P99), or ... our emulator isn't emulating charm properly.

Well, keep in mind the first EQ expansion came what, 11 months after launch? The next 6 after that?

we're talking 1-2 years for players to learn this game from the ground up.

By the time velious ended, I might believe a few players knew how to solo charm with an enchanter, but I wouldn't believe that it was well known because I distinctly remember them being friendly wizards basically that just kept the adds mezed and played by people who had no aggressive tendencies whatsoever during the time that I played live.

[Jimjam]

I think the prevalence of shared cleric bots and community ports makes a difference. Very easy to 96% rez and move on.

An enchanter pays for its own slot through the dps increase of haste.

Even today I’d rather an underlevelled or unmotivated enc focuses on buffs than overstretches themself and die repeatedly. That attitude was way more common back in 99. These days there is a lot of pressure to maintain full buffs, slow, cc and keep a charm pet and that is certainly an unclassic social pressure.