sk starting points

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ok there were so many issues with trial 1 I'm going to put it in the scrap bin and we will try again. The results were significant but there were issues. Even though the parses support my hypothesis and understanding of this game, I cannot rightfully stand on them confidently and proclaim it is accurate. Regardless, I will post findings.

I had to move along because other players needed the camp more rightfully for quest related reasons.

Methods: Single pull static spawn undead. Lull neighbor. Pull. Fight down to 20% or just below. Root. Camp. Log back in. Heal, rinse repeat.

# of fights 7 with each setup
Str variables: 140 vs 160

Limitations of fights:
-High green xp mob, not blue (this is a problem)
-Due to the above, fights were not as long as they should have been
-High variability from fight to fight. Ironically my highest dps was at 140 str but the averages still are relevant
-Very limited hits logged due to aforementioned low level of mobs and not enough time in camp to get a more appropriate # of hits

Strengths of this test/parse:
-Same mob 100% of the time
-Within xp range (albeit barely)

160 strength:
Av DPS: 29
Av Hit: 62
Max hit: 120

140 strength:
Av dps: 25
Av Hit: 58
Max hit: 116

Difference in DPS: 16%
Difference in av Hit: 6.8% (not consistent with findings in av dps - that's RNG luck one way or another)
Difference in max hit: 3.5%

Weapon used:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Darkmetal_Falchion

Goal was to prolong the fights as long as possible.

Buffs: Self only
-Strength difference accomplished by removing gear, none of which had + attack effects
-Yaulp was never used

*bonus fries: there was a significant parse-able difference in damage taken in removing pieces of gear


TLDR:

Parse, though it showed what i wanted it to show ... it has fatal flaws. I will try again and will brainstorm mobs that are dark blue exclusively moving forward.

TALLY HO!

What could make this easier?
-finding a a much higher level mob
-having a dedicated healer so individual fights could be longer
-having a corner to back into so repositioning is a non issue

Multiple issues here:

1. I do not know when gameparse decides a fight has started. This can skew the average DPS if there is dead time between autoattack on and autoattack off.
2. You need to exclude ripostes. For example, I got 4 ripostes on the first turtle test, and 9 on the second turtle test. That is hundreds of damage that is random, and can skew either data set.
3. You used a 1h weapon, and I used a 2h weapon. There are differences in how those formulas work.
4. You need to tell us what mob you were fighting.
5. Your difference in DPS was 4, and mine was 3. The only reason why your percentage is higher is because your numbers are lower (because you used a 1H sword). I am not sure why you are celebrating when the numbers are similar, and they may be a bit inflated.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Multiple issues here:

1. I do not know when gameparse decides a fight has started. This can skew the average DPS if there is dead time between autoattack on and autoattack off.
2. You need to exclude ripostes. For example, I got 4 ripostes on the first turtle test, and 9 on the second turtle test. That is hundreds of damage that is random, and can skew either data set.
3. You used a 1h weapon, and I used a 2h weapon. There are differences in how those formulas work.
4. You need to tell us what mob you were fighting.
5. Your difference in DPS was 4, and mine was 3. The only reason why your percentage is higher is because your numbers are lower (because you used a 1H sword). I am not sure why you are celebrating when the numbers are similar, and they may be a bit inflated.

Derp.

1. I have deemed the whole parse insufficient
2. Ripostes are a static thing that happen at mathematically predictable frequencies - they don't matter that much. Beyond that, this was with a much lower damage 1hs compared to my 2handers (one of which is a NTOV raid BIS type item)
3. There are no differences in 1h vs 2h when it comes to average dps. As long as the weapon is consistent it doesn't matter if it's a fine steel sword vs a Palladius Axe of Slaughter for comparison sake ... Dude i expected (or wanted to) more of you.
4. The parse itself sucks, i am not submitting it for final review. The mob is therefore irrelevant.
5. My difference in DPS was 4. Yours was 3. I was using a Hate 1hs. You were using a ToV 2hander. The point was I used the same exact mob over and over again with the same exact everything minus exactly 20 str. What weapon you use - rusty dagger vs ToV 2hander ... it doesn't matter. % difference is % difference

This is not rocket surgery.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Derp.

1. I have deemed the whole parse insufficient
2. Ripostes are a static thing that happen at mathematically predictable frequencies - they don't matter that much. Beyond that, this was with a much lower damage 1hs compared to my 2handers (one of which is a NTOV raid BIS type item)
3. There are no differences in 1h vs 2h when it comes to average dps. As long as the weapon is consistent it doesn't matter if it's a fine steel sword vs a Palladius Axe of Slaughter for comparison sake ... Dude i expedted more of you.
4. The parse itself sucks, i am not submitting it for final review. The mob is therefore irrelevant.
5. My difference in DPS was 4. Yours was 3. I was using a Hate 1hs. You were using a ToV 2hander. The point was I used the same exact mob over and over again with the same exact everything minus exactly 20 str. What weapon you use - rusty dagger vs ToV 2hander ... it doesn't matter. % difference is % difference

This is not rocket surgery.

I agree, it isn't rocket surgery.

The difference in raw DPS was 1. Your number was probably inflated due to ripostes unless you somehow got the exact same amount with and without the 20 STR. In the turtle fights I removed ripostes because I got 4 ripostes on the first test, and 9 ripostes on the second test. This can add up to thousands of extra damage, especially when using a good weapon.

I also do not know when gameparse considers a fight to be started or finished, so it is tough to say how it calculates average DPS. Your numbers may be inflated a bit from that too.

So far you haven't shown anything other than both of our parses were similar, which means your idea that the turtle is an invalid DPS test target is currently up for debate.

I pointed out 1H vs 2H because you have been really specific about the test having as little variability as possible. You don't even want mob level to be different. You should be using a 2H weapon as well, to keep consistent with this paradigm.

I appreciate you are willing to admit your data was flawed though!

[Lune]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Derp.

1. I have deemed the whole parse insufficient
2. Ripostes are a static thing that happen at mathematically predictable frequencies - they don't matter that much. Beyond that, this was with a much lower damage 1hs compared to my 2handers (one of which is a NTOV raid BIS type item)
3. There are no differences in 1h vs 2h when it comes to average dps. As long as the weapon is consistent it doesn't matter if it's a fine steel sword vs a Palladius Axe of Slaughter for comparison sake ... Dude i expected (or wanted to) more of you.
4. The parse itself sucks, i am not submitting it for final review. The mob is therefore irrelevant.
5. My difference in DPS was 4. Yours was 3. I was using a Hate 1hs. You were using a ToV 2hander. The point was I used the same exact mob over and over again with the same exact everything minus exactly 20 str. What weapon you use - rusty dagger vs ToV 2hander ... it doesn't matter. % difference is % difference

This is not rocket surgery.

Problem is he has no ability to understand all this. Mathematically predictable frequencies, or really any mathematical understanding, has no meaning for him. As expected you just get another brick-wall post with no insight whatsoever

[Lune]

Dude's got a doctor and guy with a clinical doctorate running numbers for his autistic ass while he sits there and misunderstands everything, single most effective troll in this forum's history lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Dude's got a doctor and guy with a clinical doctorate running numbers for his autistic ass while he sits there and misunderstands everything, single most effective troll in this forum's history lol

It's quite clear for everybody to see you are simply a yes man at this point.

Here is my data again: https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=105

The difference in DPS between my two TURTLE fights was 3 DPS, excluding Ripostes.

Troxx's data shows a difference of 4 DPS, including Ripostes.

This mean's Troxx's hypothesis about the turtle is likely incorrect. We should be seeing a much larger difference if the turtle has some special properties that skew the data.

The DPS difference is not very big, and possibly inflated due to Ripostes and gameparse.

I am not sure where the "gotcha" is here lol. He is just showing his data is similar to mine, albeit gathered in a worse way, and using 1H instead of 2H.

The logic of reducing the DPS difference due to being lower level with a worse weapon and worse haste item still applies. OP isn't going to be getting the full 3 or 4 DPS while leveling.

Troxx hasn't done anything yet to show the DPS difference of 3 or 4 will get larger at lower levels.

[Troxx]

20 str should never ... EVER ... result in a 16% difference in dps. My parse was flawed despite it showing what I wanted it to.

Biggest problems:
-Not the level range i shooted for. It was high green, not solid blue
-Fights were short requiring compiling lots of smaller/shorter fights
-Insufficient total hits logged - the RNG is a big deal in these cases
-Insufficient time in camp - someone else came in with a legitimate need cutting session short.

The parses showed precisely what I wanted it to, but to a far greater degree than should be mathematically expected. It is therefore a "not good" parse to use as proof of anything. I will repeat it at some point.

I consider that session to be somewhere between "marginally useful" and "completely borked due to limitations aforementioned".

Unlike you, I don't stand on my own relative "Mr Turtle" and proclaim victory. I acknowledge my findings, despite being what i wanted them to show ... were anecdotal at best.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The parses showed precisely what I wanted it to, but to a far greater degree than should be mathematically expected. It is therefore a "not good" parse to use as proof of anything. I will repeat it at some point.

I consider that session to be somewhere between "marginally useful" and "completely borked due to limitations aforementioned".

Unlike you, I don't stand on my own relative "Mr Turtle" and proclaim victory. I acknowledge my findings, despite being what i wanted them to show ... were anecdotal at best.

I am not standing on anything. I am simply pointing out that your data https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=168 happened to fit nicely with my data https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=105 . I got a difference of 3 DPS, and you got a difference of 4 DPS. Since you didn't exclude ripostes, I imagine your number is a bit inflated. This means I am currently winning the debate. You have also shown that you may be incorrect about the turtle with regards to it's validity as a DPS testing mob.

If you think your data is insufficient, I will be happy to review the new data when you try again.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

20 str should never ... EVER ... result in a 16% difference in dps. My parse was flawed despite it showing what I wanted it to.

You are simply putting too much emphasis on percentages as evidence. My DPS numbers were 67 vs. 70. The percentage difference there is ~5%, even though the raw number is close to yours. Percentages get bigger when both numbers are smaller. The important part is the raw DPS number. 3-4 DPS via 20 STR isn't a large performance increase at level 60. This number will go down further when you take into account lower player level, lower player skills, a lower ratio weapon, a lower percentage haste item, etc. This is because we are talking about a player who is leveling in EC gear, not a player already at level 60.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I got a difference of 3 DPS, and you got a difference of 4 DPS.

Your comparative skills are lacking. You got a 3dps difference and I did have 4 but ….

Flawed though my testing was ….

-I got a difference of 4 dps using a plane of hate 1hs where the max dps was 29 va 25 with my weak ass half elf str. That is a 16% difference.
-You had a 3 dps difference using a ToV 2 hander. Dps of 70.25 vs 67.3 dps on a level 5 mob. That’s a 4.38% difference.

That’s a whole world of nowhere close. It’s not a 3 dps vs 4dps difference. It’s 4.38% dps more vs 16% more.

If I had been putting out 67.3dps with my ToV weapon … my flawed study would have proportionally been putting out 78.06 dps (that’s 16% more than 67.3). So not a 3 dps increase … closer to 11dps.

Again, I don’t trust my tests. I need to dedicate more time and do them properly. It can’t possibly be as high as a 16% difference.

Even if your parses were 100% accurate, 4.3% is nothing to sneeze at. This is a game of inches and most players would give a leg for being 4.3% better at whatever. It certainly makes a strong enough case for killing faster and not needing 20 more intelligence on a low str iksar sk.

[Ripqozko]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your comparative skills are lacking. You got a 3dps difference and I did have 4 but ….

Flawed though my testing was ….

-I got a difference of 4 dps using a plane of hate 1hs where the max dps was 29 va 25 with my weak ass half elf str. That is a 16% difference.
-You had a 3 dps difference using a ToV 2 hander. Dps of 70.25 vs 67.3 dps on a level 5 mob. That’s a 4.38% difference.

That’s a whole world of nowhere close. It’s not a 3 dps vs 4dps difference. It’s 4.38% dps more vs 16% more.

If I had been putting out 67.3dps with my ToV weapon … my flawed study would have proportionally been putting out 78.06 dps (that’s 16% more than 67.3)

Again, I don’t trust my tests. I need to dedicate more time and do them properly. It can’t possibly be as high as a 16% difference.

Even if your parses were 100% accurate, 4.3% is nothing to sneeze at. It certainly makes a strong enough case for killing faster and not needing 20 more intelligence on a low str iksar sk.

Why can’t ya do 78?

/GU Lord Doljonijiarnimorinar in 177s, 92687 @523 | Riphealer 13741@(80 in 170s) | Molf 13498@(80 in 168s) | Gatruk 13442@(78 in 171s) | Kittla 11514@(68 in 169s) | Enviee 8790@(54 in 162s) {X}

I did 80 here with shovel on my pally