Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People resort to memes and insults when they're trying to have a reasonable discussion with an unreasonable person that appears to have the mental capacity of a child. It gets frustrating and tiresome and sometimes memes and name calling are just easier. Nobody said DPS is irrelevant. More damage is always going to be helpful in some way. That's why a mage doing 50% more dps than your shaman is a better option when the other utility a shaman brings is largely irrelevant with enchanters and a cleric in the group. Your heals aren't needed. Your slow isn't needed. Your dots won't have time to tick and so on. Everyone knows shaman is a strong class just not ideal for this hypothetical group. You just unfortunately have such a strong boner for the class that it's drained your brain of all the blood it needs to think clearly and realize shaman isn't the ideal choice here.

We're arguing with someone that clearly has mental issues of some kind. A very large shaman boner. No blood in the brain. Posts the same bad information over and over. Makes up hypothetical situations that would never occur in reality to justify his bullshit (root rotting adds.etc). When called out just doubles down and pretends he's correct cause you didn't post enough data or do enough math so you couldn't possibly be right. Then on top of it all when people understandably get frustrated trying to converse with this imbecile he just makes another 50 posts bitching about people calling him names. My favorite is when he points out like 8 people combined have 500 posts and how thats a bad thing but it's not bad that he alone has 550 posts in this thread. At the current rate of posting he's going to have 3x as many posts as the 2nd highest poster here pretty soon. The mental gymnastics are the most impressive DSM feature I think.

No, that is not what people do lol. If you think I am wrong, just let it go and stop posting. If you think I have a mental issue, this is even more sad because you are trying to win against someone who you think is "autistic".

You are incapable of being told you are wrong, and you cannot even provide evidence to back up your claims.

Instead, you accumulate over 500 posts of memes/insults because "it's just easier".

The only person acting like a child here is you, and you are also still wrong[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] You can back up your points with evidence at any time, or stop posting.

[Keebz]

I feel like DSM has never played any other caster besides Shaman.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by Gloomlord [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We've already established that the healing counts as the "utility", along with all their other spells which are not DPS.

And, for the last time, we've already established that DPS in 4th slot is not "irrelevant".

Yeah, I'm beginning to see what Plsnoban was saying. You can't be reasoned with. You've already lost the argument more than 100 pages ago, but you're so insane and unintelligent you can't realise this.

Lol welcome to the thread. Honestly the best part about this thread has become new people coming in and telling DSM that he’s wrong and he writes unintelligible novels in response so the person just gets exasperated with him and then he starts insulting them.

Gloomlord has been the latest victim. Now the cycle shall begin anew.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Keebz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I feel like DSM has never played any other caster besides Shaman.

I have. I have also grouped/raided with the other classes many times. You don't need to have a level 60 character of every caster to know how the game works, and how other classes play.

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lol welcome to the thread. Honestly the best part about this thread has become new people coming in and telling DSM that he’s wrong and he writes unintelligible novels in response so the person just gets exasperated with him and then he starts insulting them.

Gloomlord has been the latest victim. Now the cycle shall begin anew.

Just because people say you are wrong, doesn't mean they are right[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] You know what works? Providing counter-evidence.

[Gloomlord]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No, that is not what people do lol. If you think I am wrong, just let it go and stop posting. If you think I have a mental issue, this is even more sad because you are trying to win against someone who you think is "autistic".

You are incapable of being told you are wrong, and you cannot even provide evidence to back up your claims.

Instead, you accumulate over 500 posts of memes/insults because "it's just easier".

The only person acting like a child here is you, and you are also still wrong[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] You can back up your points with evidence at any time, or stop posting.

"Just leave the thread so I can go off thinking I'm in the right, like the psychotic child that I am"

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[cd288]

Originally Posted by Gloomlord [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Where the hell did we say the DPS was irrelevant?!?! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We said the utility was irrelevant. Why? Because you argue it's worth keeping the shaman for, even though it clearly isn't.

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Yup if you have a cleric and ench zero need for the shaman

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Reposting an overview of the discussion. This is the data given, so it is all we can use. It would be great if someone else posted some data.

============================Mage DPS===================================

This data is reportedly from a group Troxx had in Sebilis Crypt:

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According to Troxx, his pet is buffed with Burnout IV, and it is a level 60 Water Pet Unfocused. Pet level is guessed at 1 level under max, since a few parses show the max hit of 58.

Average pet DPS: (36 + 50 + 45 + 51 + 30 + 49 + 56 + 60 + 55) / 9 = 48 DPS.

A Mage with max Meditate and Clarity II is regenerating mana at 31 mana per tick sitting and 12 mana per tick standing. Let's assume this Mage has 3000 Mana to start with.

Max mana per hour: (31 mana x 10 ticks per minute x 60 minutes) + 3000 = 21600.

Shock of Steel costs 275 mana. Let's assume the Mage has Conjuration Specialization. This reduces the cost to 248. Since the Mage will most likely lose 1 meditation tick due to the 6 second cast time, the mana cost goes back up to 268, to account for the 20 mana lost from not meditating. This means you can cast Shock of Steel 80 times per hour, assuming that is the only thing you do.

Troxx's average casts per individual fight: (5 + 5 + 4 + 5 + 5 + 4 + 6 + 4 + 8) / 9 = 5. To pull this off, that means he is spending 1340 - 290 (9 med ticks + 1 standing tick) = 1050 mana per encounter. After 3 encounters he would be out of mana, so there is no way he can sustain the DPS numbers provided. This is why we use the average of 1 nuke per minute, as it is not realistic to be nuking at a high DPS consistently. 74.22 is also close to the overall encounter of 80 DPS, so there is no reason to doubt the individual sets vs. the whole set.

Average player DPS without clickies: (825 damage x 80 nukes) / 3600 seconds = 18.33 DPS.

Using a https://wiki.project1999.com/A_Sebilite_Golem , which is a level 49 Sebilis mob and similar to Crypt mobs, an unslowed mob did 74 hits in 144 seconds. (74 x 33) / 144 = 16.95 DPS

Average Damage Shield DPS: 16.95 DPS.

Average Total DPS without clickies: 48 + 18.33 + 16.95 = 83.28 DPS

Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling : 48 + 35.29 + 16.95 = 100.24 DPS

Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff : 48 + 24.66 + 16.95 = 89.61 DPS

The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group:

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds without clickies: 48 + 18.33 + 11.45 = 77.78 DPS
The Direct damage number is lower because you would realistically only be able to nuke once per minute due to mana, so ((825 * 0.5) / 36) = 11.45 DPS

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling : 48 + 16.66 + 16.95 = 81.61 DPS
The DPS is halved on this due to it being difficult to realistically get two 17 second casts off in 36 seconds.

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff : 48 + 18.5 + 16.95 = 83.45 DPS

============================Shaman DPS===================================

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-g8Ywibztg - Pet DPS video, logs are attached in description.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc - Shaman Torpor Mana Recovery Video.

Pet DPS is using a max level pet with Celerity (50% haste), Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Average pet DPS: 7321 damage over 414 seconds = 17.7 DPS

A Shaman with max Torpor and Clarity II is regenerating mana at rougly 16 mana per second. Let's assume this Shaman has 3000 Mana to start with.

Max mana per hour: (16 x 3600) + 3000 = 60600.

Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt cost 745 mana total. This means you could cast this combination 81 a maximum of times per hour. You would not be using Conjuraton Specialization typically, so the number doesn't change.

Average player DPS without clickies (Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt): ((1648 + 1278) x 60) / 3600 seconds = 48.76 DPS.

Average Total DPS without clickies: 17.7 + 48.76 = 66.46 DPS

Average Total DPS with JBB: 17.7 + 32.88 = 50.58 DPS

Average Total DPS with 1 Epic Click + 1x Pox + 2x Bane of Nife: 17.7 + 63 = 80.7 DPS

Average Total DPS with 2x Epic Click + 2x Bane of Nife (on 2 mobs): 17.7 + 68.3 = 86 DPS
I will not use this for the differences in DPS below, since everything else is single target DPS.

The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group:

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds without clickies (2x Ice Strike): 17.7 + 37.5 = 55.2 DPS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XwiGKTuu2E - Shaman Quick DPS video, logs are attached in description.

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with JBB: 17.7 + 29.22 = 46.92 DPS

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with 1x JBB and 1x Bane of Nife: 17.7 + 35.25 = 52.95 DPS
This would be a bit more mana efficient than 2x Ice Strikes, could do more DPS if the mob takes longer to kill, and is the same cast time as 2x Ice Strikes.

============================Difference in DPS===================================

Average Total DPS difference without clickies: 83.28 DPS (Mage) - 66.46 DPS (Shaman) = 26.82 DPS

Average Total DPS difference with best clickies: 100.24 DPS - 80.7 DPS = 19.54 DPS

The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group:

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds difference without clickies: 77.78 DPS (Mage) - 55.2 DPS (Shaman) = 22.58 DPS

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds difference with best clickies: 83.45 DPS - 52.95 DPS = 30.5 DPS

Difference is between 19.54 DPS and 30.5 DPS, depending on the setup of the Mage vs. the Shaman, and killspeed.

============================Conclusion============ =======================

The reason for this breakdown is because the debate is choosing between Mage/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric or Shaman/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric for OP's question. The argument for Mage is DPS + Malo + Charm Break Safety.

A Shaman has both Charm Break Safety (Pet + Torpor) and a better Malo -> Malosini chance, due to Malo being better than Mala. When looking at DPS, you can see that you will only lose 20-30 DPS when picking a Shaman over a Mage. Using Troxx's Data, you can see that two charmed level 47 mobs with a Torch and Haste would do 86x2 = 172 DPS. This means you are looking at a difference between 255 DPS and 225 DPS. When killing a mob with 8000 HP, the difference would be 31 seconds vs. 36 seconds. The Mage is only saving 5 seconds per kill, and offers very little else. A Shaman's toolkit on the other hand has a much broader application, and will save your group time in other less quantifiable ways. I see very little reason to pick a Mage over a Shaman.

The other debate that spawned was whether to take a Shaman or not based on them being less useful at low levels. It is true Shamans don't come into their own until level 30 or so, but this is true for Enchanters and clerics too. https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...postcount=1273 This post shows a level 24 warrior out-DPSing a level 27 charmed pet with 37% haste and a Torch. Enchanter charm isn't as powerful as people think at lower levels, plus Enchanters have to deal with more meditating, lower mana pool, more fizzles, more interrupts, resists, etc. The 2x Enchanters in this group aren't going to be as good as melees with 2k worth of gear. The cleric is also going to bring fairly little to the table. This shouldn't deter you from bringing these classes, as they are well worth the wait once you get to level 30 or so. Luckily leveling from 1-30 is going to be super easy with any group of 4, so this shouldn't be a big consideration.

Finally, this debate is looking at all level ranges, from 1-60, including level 60 item farming. It is up to the user to decide whether they want to pick a Mage for slightly faster kill speeds from levels 1-60 and during level 60 farming, or pick a Shaman for their superior utility and safety. This is very useful when farming level 60 camps like Fungi King and Ixiblat Fer. Honestly a group of 4 casters is already going to level extremely quickly, so I do not believe the Mage is worth it. A slightly better leveling experience does not make up for a Mage bringing very little at the end. OP has already chosen his group (Shaman/Enchanter/Necro/Mage), so it is actually a draw hehe. I personally would do Shaman/Enchanter/Necro/Cleric.

[Gloomlord]

I'm against people being kicked out of a guild for reasons they disagree, since I remember being kicked out of a guild in Classic WoW for merely saying I thought reserving loot in PuGs was the antithesis of a fucking MMORPG. Opinions, USUALLY, should be respected.

But this man is so insane and childish, he honestly deserves to be kicked from this guild you guys speak about. He is an utter embarrassment to mature adults.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Gloomlord [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm against people being kicked out of a guild for reasons they disagree, since I remember being kicked out of a guild in Classic WoW for merely saying I thought reserving loot in PuGs was the antithesis of a fucking MMORPG. Opinions, USUALLY, should be respected.

But this man is so insane and childish, he honestly deserves to be kicked from this guild you guys speak about. He is an utter embarrassment to mature adults.

You really need to look in a mirror. You can't admit you are wrong, and insult anybody who disagrees with you.

Fallacies such as "Everybody thinks I am right, therefore I am right" are not a valid argument. I am not sure why you are so hung up on thinking you can continue a discussion in this manner. Either bring evidence or respectfully disagree. You are not special. You do not get to dictate by fiat who is right or wrong.

[PlsNoBan]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You really need to look in a mirror. You can't admit you are wrong, and insult anybody who disagrees with you.

Fallacies such as "Everybody thinks I am right, therefore I am right" are not a valid argument. I am not sure why you are so hung up on thinking you can continue a discussion in this manner. Either bring evidence or respectfully disagree. You are not special. You do not get to dictate by fiat who is right or wrong.

Mage does 50% more dps than shaman by your own data. Shaman utility is largely useless in a group with 2 encs and a cleric. Shaman does less damage than mage and brings nothing else that really matters to the table. Math/Logic/Data all pointing to Mage > Shaman. Yet you have 550+ posts saying the opposite.

Riddle me this fuckhead: How do you suggest we provide "evidence" that will change your mind? Far as I'm concerned the evidence is already clear as day and you just bold face stare at it and go "Nope wrong cuz shaman boner". Or you just make up some bullshit about safety and how the shaman makes everything safer. If you knew anything about this game you'd know that was dumb. If you've been in multiple enc groups with a cleric you'd know they don't fucking need a shaman to be safe. They'll do just fine I promise.