Game Mechanics: Rogue hide

[azeth]

Evidence for Velious mobs abilities to see through hide/sneak is limited.

My memory says all of Derakor the Vindicator's temple could see through it... but thats just my memory.

[koros]

Originally Posted by Droog007 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hide was better than invis. It was invis to undead also (for rogues). Period.

Sneak did more for you than letting you move around while hidden...

That's why I said hide and not sneak/hide. I'm aware sneak was a 100% invis from the rear arc. How do you reconcile your claim with the the fact that we've provided evidence of non-undead mobs not seeing through hide but seeing through regular invis?

I don't know why I need to keep posting these, because you're obviously convinced that these era appropriate posts are incorrect, but here again is an example of hide being better:

http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/f...-plane-of-hate

Revultant Rat - Warrior - They look like a giant diseased rat and have low magic resist, but proc Deadly Poison. Only drop is a Ranger Whip. They do not see rogues, but may or may not see normal invis (some do, some don't). They have a small aggro range.

Spite Golem - Shaman - They look like a rock golem. They have insane magic resist (although poison, disease, and the wizard Lure spells will usually stick). This is the most important target most times. If you get 2, one warrior, usually the backup assist, will keep second one busy while the group kills number 1. It is possible to kill several, but very, very tough, so be careful. They love to cast SoW and other Alacrity on everything close to them. They drop shaman armor including a shield, and a druid shield. They do not see a rogue, but see everything else. They have a large aggro range.

[Droog007]

Originally Posted by koros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't recall player hide skill ever being a factor. Level 1 (brell) rogues for instance were used in the hole. Where's that sourced from?

Hidden is hidden is hidden... skill level only affected success rate, and later (probably) evade success rate.

Don't make the mistake of locking yourself into thinking that there HAD to be a reason for those 101-200+ skillups in Hide.

Hide just worked - unless you were a noob. Sneak may have had some nuance with skill level, but good luck proving that out.

[Droog007]

Originally Posted by Droog007 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Sneak may have had some nuance with skill level, but good luck proving that out.

Oh wait, all we have to do is find 13 year old post from a now 26 year old man, and read it in a vacuum. Bang - proof, baby!

[koros]

Originally Posted by Droog007 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hidden is hidden is hidden... skill level only affected success rate, and later (probably) evade success rate.

Don't make the mistake of locking yourself into thinking that there HAD to be a reason for those 101-200+ skillups in Hide.

Hide just worked - unless you were a noob. Sneak may have had some nuance with skill level, but good luck proving that out.

I know. I was saying exactly that in reply to Kanras.

Originally Posted by kanras View Post
It's not perfect. It's just that the first step was reverting the asinine way I changed it last time. There's still things that will eventually see through hide that currently don't:

- See invis spell
- Certain mobs when player hide skill is lower

Maybe more I'm not realizing right now.

And I replied...

I don't recall player hide skill ever being a factor. Level 1 (brell) rogues for instance were used in the hole. Where's that sourced from?

[Erati]

Originally Posted by koros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't recall player hide skill ever being a factor. Level 1 (brell) rogues for instance were used in the hole. Where's that sourced from?

well level 1 brell rogues are used in the hole bc the elementals wont attack you when you are on Brell faction

and you have IVU with rogue hide/sneak so you can roam around undead area

I dont think lvl 1 rogues in the hole have anything to do with how effective or not their 'hide' was, it was all about dat faction, being able to be sneak by Golems ( dont know if they usually see hide or not ) and IVU

[koros]

Post on the sony board is gone, but Treats is pretty reliable:

Treats
07-06-2012, 02:16 PM
Bump on this I guess. From the Sony board:

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/po...topic_id=65689

I noticed something strange this weekened. I have leveled a couple characters through Dreadlands, so I know that all Drolvargs can see invis. However, when my Rogue graduated to there, I found that they do not see Hide. Certain Drolvargs inside KC, namely the ones up in the "lookout" positions, can see me, but the others can't. I am not standing behind them.

What is up with this? My theory is that in addition to certain mobs being marked "See Invis", certain mob *types* can see invis, as well. Such as Undead, Drolvarg, and certain Gnolls. Sneak/Hide does not hide you from mobs flagged "See Invis" (Shroud of Stealth does, in general)... but it *does* hide you from mobs that see invis due to their "type".

Is that how it works? Or am I just remembering things incorrectly?

I assume he is referring to the Drolvarg Guardians in the lookout positions?

Others can't (Sentry's)

If it is flagged due to NPC type it will see through See Invis but not Hide? (See Invisible)

If it is marked as See Invis will see through both invisible and hide/sneak? (See Hide)

Examples:

Sol B Bats -- Use Sonar for detection
Mob type Sees invisible and also flagged to See Invisible (Sees Sneak/Hide)

Drolvarg Sentry -- Mob type will See Invisible but Unflagged to See Invisible (Doesn't See Hide/Sneak)
Drolvarg Guardian -- Mob type will See Invisible and also flagged to See Invisible (Sees Hide/Sneak)

Random See Invisible Sebilite Juggernaut -- Mob type does not See Invisible
Flagged in Database to See Invis so will see Invisible and Hide/Sneak??

How certain Mobs were set to See Invisible (But Not See Invisible by body type)?
Possibly just a random low percentage chance? No idea.

Hope this kinda makes sense. Thoughts?

[koros]

Originally Posted by Erati [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

well level 1 brell rogues are used in the hole bc the elementals wont attack you when you are on Brell faction

and you have IVU with rogue hide/sneak so you can roam around undead area

I dont think lvl 1 rogues in the hole have anything to do with how effective or not their 'hide' was, it was all about dat faction, being able to be sneak by Golems ( dont know if they usually see hide or not ) and IVU

Yeah Kanras was saying certain mobs would see you if your hide skill was low. I was using level 1 rogues as proof that mobs didn't care about hide skill if the check was successful.

Nothing would aggro a hidden level 1 brell rogue there.

[Droog007]

Originally Posted by koros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How do you reconcile your claim with the the fact that we've provided evidence of non-undead mobs not seeing through hide but seeing through regular invis?

I reconcile my claim with experience. I've played since July '99 and a rogue was one of the first classes I tried. Just prior to Kunark launch, it was pretty much all I played, and prior to Velious and extending into Secrets of Faydwer it was ALL I played (sometimes with a shaman bot, and later with mercs). I've been an EQ rogue since before it was cool. However, I got Shroud of Stealth as soon as I could, and all of my experience after that point in time is colored by that. I think most of you guys are simply remembering wrong.

Originally Posted by koros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't know why I need to keep posting these, because you're obviously convinced that these era appropriate posts are incorrect, but here again is an example of hide being better:

http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/f...-plane-of-hate

Revultant Rat - They do not see rogues, but may or may not see normal invis (some do, some don't).

Spite Golem - They do not see a rogue, but see everything else.

You're partially correct. I read these posts with a grain of salt. I don't pick a post here and there and put it forth as GOSPEL. I've also seen LOTS of evidence in some of the same posts you are linking that simply say rogue hide is invis + ivu. In this example - do you think this kid really went around and made sure to con things either in their frontal arc or with sneak dropped? And further, did he compare those individual results with another class using invis or IVU? I doubt it. I think this kid was having a blast figuring out how to raid hate and made a nice little write-up after a few runs.

The old patch notes are pretty clear, and my experience matches them. We need some zone-by-zone tuning of which mobs can spawn with see invis, and at what rate... but I truly believe this separation of invis and pre-SoS rogue hide is a mistake.

[koros]

Originally Posted by Droog007 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I reconcile my claim with experience. I've played since July '99 and a rogue was one of the first classes I tried. Just prior to Kunark launch, it was pretty much all I played, and prior to Velious and extending into Secrets of Faydwer it was ALL I played (sometimes with a shaman bot, and later with mercs). I've been an EQ rogue since before it was cool. However, I got Shroud of Stealth as soon as I could, and all of my experience after that point in time is colored by that. I think most of you guys are simply remembering wrong.



You're partially correct. I read these posts with a grain of salt. I don't pick a post here and there and put it forth as GOSPEL. I've also seen LOTS of evidence in some of the same posts you are linking that simply say rogue hide is invis + ivu. In this example - do you think this kid really went around and made sure to con things either in their frontal arc or with sneak dropped? And further, did he compare those individual results with another class using invis or IVU? I doubt it. I think this kid was having a blast figuring out how to raid hate and made a nice little write-up after a few runs.

The old patch notes are pretty clear, and my experience matches them. We need some zone-by-zone tuning of which mobs can spawn with see invis, and at what rate... but I truly believe this separation of invis and pre-SoS rogue hide is a mistake.

I played eq exclusively and a rogue then too, from early 2000 til the end of GoD. I'll make a rogue and a different class on eqlive, goto dreadlands/seb/etc, and see if there's any difference in the ability of non-undead mobs to see them.