new patch ench charm

[Brain]

Originally Posted by Haynar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In classic, everyone did not know that cha was vital to charm, along with tash and malo on the mob.

So if you can come up with a way to make everyone stupid, and not know that info, let me know how to implement it.

That's not the point, why not just go create a new game? This isn't classic, this is 2011.

Kanras - as we've stated many times: happenings on this server will not mock classic experiences, it's impossible.

-We know what stat(s) to stack this time around
-Raid leaders / Guilds know the MOST EFFECTIVE strategy for raid mobs (if that involves charming, then so be it)
-Because of all this established knowledge, our experiences on this server should be EASIER, FASTER and PREDICTABLE. Why in the world is anyone trying to change that? It's not a hard concept...

You shouldn't nerf a classes core ability because it was being used to down raid mobs, especially making it obsolete. This isn't classic, this is 2011. Hell yes charm is going to last longer than everyone remembers in classic, especially with 255 CHA......

[ziahh]

Originally Posted by Rilen

To harp on a bit of what Throb said. I think most people are misleading themselves in thinking that charm is as it was on live. How many ench did you know with 255 charisma that constantly ran malo/tash on their pets? How many did you know that kept -MR items bagged specifically to give to pets to lower their break chances?

Like many things here, they seem OP'd because everyone knows the name of the game already. On live MANY things simply were not done the way they are here because of a lack of general knowledge of such things. I distinctly remember enchanters doing duo/trio work in Kunark, and I remember when my group of friends first got started in Velious charming giants in the arena. My little collective of friends would have been incapable of doing anything were it not for the ench holding a lieutenant in the arena as a pet.

The reason I remember for charm and pets in general not being as prevalent in the experience scene is that pets ALWAYS took a percentage of exp; even if you did 5 damage or whatever. Also, like Throb said, people had a stigma about people not controlling their pets, or a paranoia about pet pathing that over-rode whatever assistance they might have given on raids.

And to reiterate some of what I said, even after the charm nerfs on live I ran a PLing service for 60+ characters using druid charm as my primary method of xp. This was on a DRUID with approximately 200 charisma, no dire charm. I had no problem keeping pets for 10 minutes to kill 3-5 mobs before the charm broke and then I'd DD/DoT and kill the pet.

As it stands now, between not being able to retrieve items from pets, and the charms seeming to be entirely level based, the charm line for all classes involved is nearly useless. This isn't the way it should be for a character with 255 charisma, malo, and 5-10 levels on the mob being charmed.

It needs to be recognized that while people may not have their own anecdotal evidence of charm being powerful (or any "overused" ability here), 90% of that reason is because this server has MANY players with MUCH higher skill than any of our live servers had. The worst guilds on this server are still 10x better, and more knowledgeable than most of the population of any live server. Most people here flat out play at a higher skill level than what was seen normally on live. We don't all deserve to suffer, or be forced into some niche of mediocrity simply because we know what we're doing or understand how to play the game.

[Blingx]

Originally Posted by ziahh [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by Rilen

To harp on a bit of what Throb said. I think most people are misleading themselves in thinking that charm is as it was on live. How many ench did you know with 255 charisma that constantly ran malo/tash on their pets? How many did you know that kept -MR items bagged specifically to give to pets to lower their break chances?

Like many things here, they seem OP'd because everyone knows the name of the game already. On live MANY things simply were not done the way they are here because of a lack of general knowledge of such things. I distinctly remember enchanters doing duo/trio work in Kunark, and I remember when my group of friends first got started in Velious charming giants in the arena. My little collective of friends would have been incapable of doing anything were it not for the ench holding a lieutenant in the arena as a pet.

The reason I remember for charm and pets in general not being as prevalent in the experience scene is that pets ALWAYS took a percentage of exp; even if you did 5 damage or whatever. Also, like Throb said, people had a stigma about people not controlling their pets, or a paranoia about pet pathing that over-rode whatever assistance they might have given on raids.

And to reiterate some of what I said, even after the charm nerfs on live I ran a PLing service for 60+ characters using druid charm as my primary method of xp. This was on a DRUID with approximately 200 charisma, no dire charm. I had no problem keeping pets for 10 minutes to kill 3-5 mobs before the charm broke and then I'd DD/DoT and kill the pet.

As it stands now, between not being able to retrieve items from pets, and the charms seeming to be entirely level based, the charm line for all classes involved is nearly useless. This isn't the way it should be for a character with 255 charisma, malo, and 5-10 levels on the mob being charmed.

It needs to be recognized that while people may not have their own anecdotal evidence of charm being powerful (or any "overused" ability here), 90% of that reason is because this server has MANY players with MUCH higher skill than any of our live servers had. The worst guilds on this server are still 10x better, and more knowledgeable than most of the population of any live server. Most people here flat out play at a higher skill level than what was seen normally on live. We don't all deserve to suffer, or be forced into some niche of mediocrity simply because we know what we're doing or understand how to play the game.

1. No cha, yes tash, yes malo if avail. Don't know of anyone on live or on P99 to carry -MR items for pets.
2. solo?
3. Something that should be implemented on P99?
4. Druids need cha?

[Brain]

Lots of people (enchanters/necros) carry -MR items for pets, or USED to. (adamantite rings...)

Sorry to veer off subject, but why can't we loot non-nodrop items given to NPCs now? I remember live being able to loot the items again...

[Splorf22]

Channeling the spirit of a thousand great scientists before me, I
went forth to charm. I started LFG in Sebilis, where I charmed a
bok shaman and killed a jin wizard (1 recharm necessary) and then
kept him charmed for a bit to experiment. The bok hit for 144;
I believe that makes him L47. I am L55 with 206 charisma in all
these experiments (sadly 5 hours of playing time is not nearly
enough to level up on these ridiculous kunark levels).

[Sun May 01 01:27:03 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 54 seconds (Froglok bok shaman)
[Sun May 01 01:28:02 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 01:28:25 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 147 seconds (Froglok bok shaman)
[Sun May 01 01:30:57 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 01:31:20 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 32 seconds (Froglok bok shaman)
[Sun May 01 01:31:57 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 01:32:11 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 198 seconds (Froglok bok shaman)
[Sun May 01 01:35:34 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 01:35:53 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 294 seconds (Froglok bok shaman)
[Sun May 01 01:40:52 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 02:42:48 2011] You begin casting Allure.

I went to Chardok and did the tunnel. My golem was very weak (hit for
135, so I guess L43-44 or so). We had a mage this time so all of
these were with malo.

Charm duration: 247 seconds (A chardoki golem)
[Sun May 01 02:47:00 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 02:47:16 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 364 seconds (A chardoki golem)
[Sun May 01 02:53:25 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 02:53:54 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 255 seconds (A chardoki golem)
[Sun May 01 02:58:14 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 02:58:29 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 341 seconds (A chardoki golem)
[Sun May 01 03:04:15 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 03:04:46 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 54 seconds (A chardoki golem)
[Sun May 01 03:05:45 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 03:05:59 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 300 seconds (A chardoki golem)
[Sun May 01 03:11:04 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 03:11:20 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 45 seconds (A chardoki golem)
[Sun May 01 03:12:10 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 03:12:28 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 458 seconds (A chardoki golem)
[Sun May 01 03:20:11 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 03:20:28 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 152 seconds (A chardoki golem)
[Sun May 01 03:23:05 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 03:23:26 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 257 seconds (A chardoki golem)
[Sun May 01 03:27:48 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 03:28:04 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 184 seconds (A chardoki golem)
[Sun May 01 03:31:13 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 03:31:28 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 623 seconds (A chardoki golem)
[Sun May 01 03:41:56 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 04:02:29 2011] You begin casting Allure.

We had a little confusion and my faithful golem was killed. So I
played with a myrmidon. I think he was L48.

Charm duration: 289 seconds (A sarnak myrmidon)
[Sun May 01 04:07:23 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 04:07:47 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 278 seconds (A sarnak myrmidon)
[Sun May 01 04:12:30 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 04:40:46 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 13 seconds (A sarnak myrmidon)
[Sun May 01 04:41:04 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 04:41:20 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 284 seconds (A sarnak myrmidon)
[Sun May 01 04:46:09 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 04:46:33 2011] You begin casting Allure.

We almost wiped in a nasty train but our wizard evac'ed us just
in time (except for poor Goragu, who was flattened). After we
recovered the corpse of our SK, I charmed a L51 myrmidon (he
summoned me when it broke) for 2 minutes (no malo). Its
interesting to note that the Janissary he was fighting was only
half dead when charm broke.

Charm duration: 123 seconds (A sarnak myrmidon)
[Sun May 01 04:48:41 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 05:13:49 2011] You begin casting Allure.

I ended up charm duoing the zone in/out with a mage which after
we got the hang of it I have to admit was easy mode. So all of
these durations were with malo. I had some bad luck with the
golem at the end but most of the time I ended up breaking charm
with invisibility. Nalkin can take heart: the mage's earth pet
would out-taunt and out-damage mine (it was hasted with daggers,
and I didn't feel confident enough to haste my charmed pets
without any healer at all).

Charm duration: 143 seconds (A sarnak janissary)
[Sun May 01 05:16:17 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 05:26:18 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 297 seconds (A sarnak templar)
[Sun May 01 05:31:20 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 05:31:20 2011] You vanish.
[Sun May 01 05:34:06 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 301 seconds (A sarnak aruspex)
[Sun May 01 05:39:12 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 05:39:12 2011] You vanish.
[Sun May 01 05:41:27 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 431 seconds (A sarnak janissary)
[Sun May 01 05:48:43 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 05:48:43 2011] You vanish.
[Sun May 01 05:51:30 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 58 seconds (a sarnak templar)
[Sun May 01 05:52:33 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 05:53:17 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 60 seconds (A sarnak templar)
[Sun May 01 05:54:22 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 05:54:22 2011] You vanish.
[Sun May 01 06:01:19 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 506 seconds (a sarnak janissary)
[Sun May 01 06:09:50 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 06:09:50 2011] You vanish.
[Sun May 01 06:11:25 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 16 seconds (A chardoki golem)
[Sun May 01 06:11:46 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 06:11:57 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 39 seconds (A chardoki golem)
[Sun May 01 06:12:41 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 06:13:01 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 41 seconds (A chardoki golem)
[Sun May 01 06:13:47 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.

Unfortunately I didn't really test what I wanted to test (charm sans
malo) that well since for some crazy reason I was always grouping with
magicians.

Once I looked at the data it became obvious what's happening: now
charm breaks much more frequently in the first minute. I had 2/6
(33%) charms break early without malo, 7/26 (30%) charms break
early with malo. People notice this and get irritated,
especially when they get 3-4 instant breaks in a row, because it
sticks in their memory - its why we used to dance to make it
rain. This happens even with malo (see my little experience with
the chardoki golem at the end). It's also what makes charming
much more dangerous now, because you never know when you might
have to blow 1000 mana on 3 recharms in a minute. What's
interesting is there is not a single charm break at 60-120
seconds. That second minute is just ironclad control.

Verdict: Charm is way better currently than I thought it was, but
I find it hard to believe that it broke 1/3 of the time in the
first minute on classic for an enchanter with 200+ charisma,
tash, and malo. I'd be very curious to see how you changed the
code to create this effect, and whether that was your intent or
not.

The 'no-pet-dw' fix is already a huge nerf towards charm soloing,
and some people may be confusing this with a charm nerf. It takes
a solid 4 minutes for a L45+ sarnak to kill one of his brothers
in arms now without haste. So if charm soloing at this level was
practical on live (and it was, at least according to Xornn) then
charm would have to last 4-5 minutes fairly consistently; that
happened on only 1 out of 6 charms.

If I was wishing, I would ask for about 25% increased duration
and breaks in the first minute 1/5 times rather than 1/3 times.
But overall though the situation is not nearly as bad as I
thought it was. The people that are saying charm (that would be
me, sigh) is useless now are just wrong.

[ziahh]

i got 3-4 post with data like urs in this tread. I would had like you to solo with only tash and not both malo+tash.thx for the info.

my last test :

[Thu Apr 21 00:45:06 2011] You begin casting Allure.
[Thu Apr 21 00:46:03 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
57 sec
[Thu Apr 21 00:46:08 2011] You begin casting Allure.
[Thu Apr 21 00:46:21 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
13sec
[Thu Apr 21 00:46:31 2011] You begin casting Allure.
[Thu Apr 21 00:46:39 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
8sec
[Thu Apr 21 00:47:09 2011] You begin casting Allure.
[Thu Apr 21 00:47:34 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
25sec
[Thu Apr 21 00:47:41 2011] Insufficient Mana to cast this spell!
[Thu Apr 21 00:47:42 2011] You begin casting Gate.
[Thu Apr 21 00:47:48 2011] LOADING, PLEASE WAIT...
[Thu Apr 21 00:48:04 2011] You have entered Trakanon's Teeth.

Note that all test i made were done with spell file 8. havent played since 21 of april.

non edited fight on page 11 and more on earlier pages.

[nalkin]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

...
If I was wishing, I would ask for about 25% increased duration
and breaks in the first minute 1/5 times rather than 1/3 times.
But overall though the situation is not nearly as bad as I
thought it was. The people that are saying charm (that would be
me, sigh) is useless now are just wrong.

Great post. After seeing that I think that the average duration of charm should be increased by a little bit and 1/5 seems reasonable for breaks in the first minute.

Still definitely not unusable and great in a duo like you did.

[Splorf22]

Ziahh I think you were just a bit unlucky. I was getting about 1/3 early breaks without malo and only slightly less with it. So there is a 1/80 chance of getting 4 in a row - which you will hit if you charm all day. You can see right at the end I got 3 early breaks on the golem within one minute. But on the whole charm lasts more like 2 minutes without malo and 4-5 with it.

IMO that's still too harsh, but its not unusable like I thought it was before I made the test. I think the big change that people have forgotten is charmed pets no longer automatically DW! This makes fights longer and more dangerous. Anyway, you can always make your own log - I'd be curious to see more data, and its not that hard, just a little tedious at times.

[Treats]

Went to Chardok to see if I could still solo with charm. Level 60 Enchanter with 255 CHA. There was no noticeable difference to me from when I solo'd there from 58-60. Here's my log:

Level 45 sarnak aruspex

[Sun May 01 15:20:25 2011] Logging to 'eqlog.txt' is now *ON*.
[Sun May 01 15:20:36 2011] You begin casting Calm.
[Sun May 01 15:20:39 2011] A sarnak aruspex looks less aggressive.
[Sun May 01 15:20:45 2011] You begin casting Calm.
[Sun May 01 15:20:47 2011] Your Mesmerize spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 15:20:48 2011] A sarnak templar looks less aggressive.
[Sun May 01 15:20:53 2011] a sarnak aruspex tells you, 'Attacking a sarnak janissary Master.'
[Sun May 01 15:22:23 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.

Level 45 sarnak aruspex

[Sun May 01 15:22:35 2011] You begin casting Allure.
[Sun May 01 15:24:03 2011] You begin casting Invisibility.
[Sun May 01 15:24:03 2011] A sarnak aruspex hits a sarnak janissary for 82 points of damage.
[Sun May 01 15:24:05 2011] Taunting Attacker Master
[Sun May 01 15:24:05 2011] A sarnak aruspex hits a sarnak janissary for 135 points of damage.
[Sun May 01 15:24:08 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 15:24:08 2011] You vanish.

Level 46 sarnak templar

[Sun May 01 15:24:44 2011] You begin casting Allure.
[Sun May 01 15:30:15 2011] You begin casting Invisibility.
[Sun May 01 15:30:18 2011] You haven't recovered yet...
[Sun May 01 15:30:19 2011] You haven't recovered yet...
[Sun May 01 15:30:19 2011] You haven't recovered yet...
[Sun May 01 15:30:20 2011] You haven't recovered yet...
[Sun May 01 15:30:20 2011] You haven't recovered yet...
[Sun May 01 15:30:20 2011] You haven't recovered yet...
[Sun May 01 15:30:21 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 15:30:21 2011] You vanish.

Level 49 sarnak aruspex

[Sun May 01 15:31:18 2011] You begin casting Allure.
[Sun May 01 15:35:27 2011] You begin casting Invisibility.
[Sun May 01 15:35:32 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Sun May 01 15:35:32 2011] You vanish.

Level 45 sarnak templar

[Sun May 01 15:35:53 2011] You begin casting Allure.
[Sun May 01 15:39:13 2011] a sarnak templar says 'Sorry, Master..calming down.'
[Sun May 01 15:39:14 2011] a sarnak templar says 'Sorry, Master..calming down.'
[Sun May 01 15:39:14 2011] a sarnak templar begins to cast a spell.
[Sun May 01 15:39:14 2011] a sarnak templar says 'Sorry, Master..calming down.'
[Sun May 01 15:39:14 2011] a sarnak templar says 'Sorry, Master..calming down.'
[Sun May 01 15:39:15 2011] a sarnak templar says 'Sorry, Master..calming down.'
[Sun May 01 15:39:16 2011] a sarnak templar says 'Sorry, Master..calming down.'
[Sun May 01 15:39:16 2011] a sarnak templar says 'Sorry, Master..calming down.'

One random charm break (the first one) and that was after it was charmed for almost 2 minutes. All other breaks were done by invis. Last one pet died.

[Splorf22]

I decided to make another log without malo.

[Tue May 03 03:24:47 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 46 seconds (a sarnak templar L48)
[Tue May 03 03:25:38 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Tue May 03 03:26:14 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 31 seconds (a sarnak templar L48)
[Tue May 03 03:26:50 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Tue May 03 03:27:07 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 153 seconds (A sarnak templar L48)
[Tue May 03 03:29:45 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Tue May 03 03:30:23 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 175 seconds (A sarnak janissary L48)
[Tue May 03 03:33:23 2011] Part of your image fades away.
[Tue May 03 03:33:23 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Tue May 03 03:34:44 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 99 seconds (A sarnak templar L48)
[Tue May 03 03:36:28 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Tue May 03 03:36:43 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 263 seconds (a sarnak templar L48)
[Tue May 03 03:41:11 2011] Part of your image fades away.
[Tue May 03 03:41:11 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Tue May 03 03:41:53 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 217 seconds (A sarnak janissary L45)
[Tue May 03 03:45:35 2011] Part of your image fades away.
[Tue May 03 03:45:35 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Tue May 03 03:45:59 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 116 seconds (A chardoki golem L48)
[Tue May 03 03:48:00 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Tue May 03 03:48:17 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 26 seconds (A chardoki golem L48)
[Tue May 03 03:48:48 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Tue May 03 03:49:14 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 90 seconds (A sarnak janissary L46)
[Tue May 03 03:50:49 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Tue May 03 03:51:09 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 47 seconds (A sarnak janissary L46)
[Tue May 03 03:52:01 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Tue May 03 05:40:57 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 37 seconds (A sarnak janissary L46)
[Tue May 03 05:41:39 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Tue May 03 05:41:53 2011] You begin casting Allure.
Charm duration: 191 seconds (a sarnak janissary L46)
[Tue May 03 05:45:09 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.
[Tue May 03 05:49:13 2011] You begin casting Allure.
[Tue May 03 05:49:40 2011] A sarnak janissary's feet adhere to the ground.
[Tue May 03 05:53:43 2011] a sarnak janissary has been slain by a sarnak myrmidon!
Charm duration: 276 seconds (A sarnak myrmidon L49)
[Tue May 03 05:53:54 2011] Your Allure spell has worn off.

Charms 0-1 minute: 5
1-2 minutes: 3
2-3 minutes: 2
3-4 minutes: 2
4-5 minutes: 2
Average: 110 seconds.

So after this I am a bit more convinced that current charm is
underpowered. I had an average duration 1:50, which is well below
Xornn's memory of 2:30 and even further below my calculated times. The
last fight is a great example of how long it takes to kill stuff at
this level. My Myrmidon was 2-3 levels higher than the Janissary it
was fighting and it still took over 4 minutes to kill it. With an
average duration of 110 seconds, this means 1 charm break per fight.

Other notes: I died in the name of science. A templar stacked
envenomed bolt and plague on me and I went down in 20 seconds tops.
Fortunately Daliant was on hand to rez me (thanks man). Since the
penalty for death at 55+ is so extreme, my net XP here was about -1
blue sans rez.

I was looking forward to using my new Goblin Gazughi ring but as you
can see I only used it 3 times because charm was wearing off just fine
on its own.