sk starting points

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You don't need to do that. A mob difference of 1-2 levels isn't going to significantly skew your data.

You can also attack the turtle in whichever way you think is better than the way I did it, or camp a mob that is a static spawn and static level.

A) A mob difference of 1-2 levels will skew things significantly enough to make the subtle differences we are trying to most objectively and accurately show less than fully reliable for a legitimate discussion. Variables will be kept identical.

B). No. We have already established that the turtle is a stupid target to run these tests on.

C). I’m not video recording it. I don’t have the software, don’t want to download and install anything new, and don’t have a YouTube channel to upload it to regardless. Data will be provided nevertheless.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A) A mob difference of 1-2 levels will skew things significantly enough to make the subtle differences we are trying to most objective and accurately show irrelevant for a legitimate discussion.

B). No. We have already established that the turtle is a stupid target to run these tests on.

You can test however you think is best, and come back with video + log evidence.

Once you have established a test that you feel is correct, I can do the same test on my SK later if need be.

I appreciate you taking the time to do so!

[Troxx]

/facepalm

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

C). I’m not video recording it. I don’t have the software, don’t want to download and install anything new, and don’t have a YouTube channel to upload it to regardless. Data will be provided nevertheless.

That's fine. Please provide the full log file without edits so we can take a look. Obviously include anything else you think is relevant. Please do not simply screenshot an excel file, log file, etc.

You can mark your tests by typing in chat, something like: "160 STR test start", "160 STR test end", etc. That way it will appear in the log file, so we understand what is going on.

Thank you!

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am saying the content of his argument is insufficient to convince people, because he will not provide evidence for his claims. [...] This is a factual claim, so it is easy to prove one way or the other. I am not going to simply accept this claim because they say so.

The first sentence in this quote (in the stronger form you used earlier of "nobody is convinced") is what is factually incorrect, as I find it convincing. I don't expect you to accept it, but I do.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here is the requested Magelo: https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestIksarSK - 172 STR with EC gear on a Iksar who put points into INT instead of STR. With Siphon Strength you would be at 182 self buffed.

Thank you, this is convincing. I'd love to see someone else who favors putting points into strength to come up with a Magelo with similar gear levels.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is incorrect. Video games are built on rules and math. Factual claims such as which starting stat is best can be proven with evidence, and there is a best and worst option statistically speaking. [...] When most players ask "what is the best starting stat", they want the objective best starting stat. That is the stat that gives most players the most value over the most amount of time.

This is something on which I don't think we will ever see eye to eye. Of course, the mechanics affected by the different attributes are deterministic, implemented through mathematical formulae. But value is subjective. Doesn't your shaman race guide essentially say "Iksar is best for raiding, Troll is best for leveling, Ogre is best if you primarily care about post-Torpor gameplay"?

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That stat is INT, and it is easy to prove:
1. INT will help you from levels 9-60, including when you are in BiS gear.
2. STR is easy to get, and you do not need 200+ STR to level to 60. No one has provided anything to show that 20 STR is going to be a significant boon.

You're setting different bars for strength and int here. You say int "will help", but that 200+ str is "not neccesary", and 20 str is "not significant". 20 str will help. You haven't shown that 20int is "a significant boon".

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are calling me less credible than the posters who literally insult/troll people who disagree with them. That makes you sound like a troll, since you are clearly not being consistent with your opinions. I am perfectly fine with accepting criticism and trying to improve myself. But your advise sounds hollow when you give people who use insults and trolling a pass. You completely ignore them. This shows you do not have a very good method for determining credibility. You should work on that first, before advising others.

I am entirely uninterested in engaging with insults and trolling. Notice that you're the only person I've engaged with in this thread. Yes, I may ignore trolls and insults, but it's not because I'm giving them a pass; it's because I don't think I'll get any sort of a constructive outcome from engaging with that sort of behavior. Maybe you think I'm picking on you, but I'd prefer you take it as a compliment that I think you're worth the effort of talking to you.

[PatChapp]

A mage was testing pets vs the shady swashbuckler. Seems like a good option, always lvl 45 and short respawn timer. No adds zl right there.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Thank you, this is convincing. I'd love to see someone else who favors putting points into strength to come up with a Magelo with similar gear levels.

You're welcome! I would like to see that too.

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is something on which I don't think we will ever see eye to eye. Of course, the mechanics affected by the different attributes are deterministic, implemented through mathematical formulae. But value is subjective. Doesn't your shaman race guide essentially say "Iksar is best for raiding, Troll is best for leveling, Ogre is best if you primarily care about post-Torpor gameplay"?

You're setting different bars for strength and int here. You say int "will help", but that 200+ str is "not neccesary", and 20 str is "not significant". 20 str will help. You haven't shown that 20int is "a significant boon".

I do indeed provide the best situation for each race. There are players who are looking to do something very specific, and they should know if a racial choice will help them out more in that scenario.

I still clearly state that Ogre is the best overall choice for the vast majority of Shamans. Torpor is the best feature of a Shaman, and the goal all Shaman players should be aiming for. FSI works best with Torpor, which means Ogre is overall the best choice. As I state in my guide, if you are 100% convinced you will never reach level 60, Troll is the better racial choice.

However, there are a lot of level 60 Shamans online when you /w all 60 Shaman. If you have been on the server for a number of years, you would notice how popular max level Shamans are. I don't think it is a wise idea to assume you will never hit 60 (and thus use that assumption to dictate your starting race/stats). There are plenty of stories of people who pick up characters they put down at level 40, and bring them up the rest of the way to 60.

The same logic applies to dumping points into STR as your starting stats. I am not saying STR will do nothing. I also mention that STR is a good choice on a self found character, or if it is your first character on a new server. This tends to be the less common scenario, however, due to both servers being at the end of Velious. As far as I know, OP is willing to twink his character, which is the common choice.

For a twinked character, STR is simply not going to be very noticeable, contrary to what everybody has been saying. I have provided evidence for this here https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=105 and https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=138 here. STA and INT will not be very noticeable either, but you will get benefits from them longer than STR, because STR is simply way easier to cap with gear and buffs. With Focus of Spirit and Maniacal Strength you only need 120ish total STR to cap out at 255. With only Maniacal Strength (if you are grouping with a sub 60 Shaman), you only need 187 total STR. As you can see, the Magelo I provided https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestIksarSK is already quite close to that number. I've done a lot of soloing over the years, and I can say that a bit of extra STR has not provided me with a significant increase in my kills per hour.

There needs to be a commonly accepted definition for what the "best" is when dealing with these kinds of questions. Otherwise there can never be consensus on any topic, because you can always find a situation in which something is the "best". Putting all your starting stats into AGI will make you the best "avoidance tank", but unfortunately the benefit from that is so small, that nobody would try and argue that it is the overall "best" choice.

The commonly accepted definition for what the "best" is should be the choice that benefits the most players, regardless of their intentions when playing the game. This advise will serve the most people. If someone is an advanced player, and looking for something more specific, a more technical discussion can be had. If someone wants to make a Magelo Shaman, who's primary purpose is to be a DKP dump for their thousands of unspent DKP, Iksar is the best choice for that. Most players don't have the luxury of having too much DKP to spend, however, so I wouldn't give this advise normally.

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am entirely uninterested in engaging with insults and trolling. Notice that you're the only person I've engaged with in this thread. Yes, I may ignore trolls and insults, but it's not because I'm giving them a pass; it's because I don't think I'll get any sort of a constructive outcome from engaging with that sort of behavior. Maybe you think I'm picking on you, but I'd prefer you take it as a compliment that I think you're worth the effort of talking to you.

I appreciate you have made your intentions clear, and have denounced the trolls. Thank you for that, and I apologize if I insulted you.

[Troxx]

Testing in progress now - 6 fights down with high str - will update later when done


edit: eyeballing it data so far is not good news for DSM, just wrapped up the 2nd low str fight

Using gamparse

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Testing in progress now - 6 fights down with high str - will update later when done

Excellent! Thanks for the update.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Testing in progress now - 6 fights down with high str - will update later when done


edit: eyeballing it data so far is not good news for DSM, just wrapped up the 2nd low str fight

Using gamparse

Can you please provide the raw logs, and not the gameparse. You have admitted multiple times in the other thread you think gameparse is incorrect.

I have no way to verify gamparse works either. That is why I provide video + log evidence. There is no third party program that may be skewing the data.