Best Trio That Doesn't Use Enchanter

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by Rimitto [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Paladins do not have the same base tanking ability as SK.
You just assert that they do because they are "light-dark" inversion in your mind.
Treat them as separate classes like they should be and you'll see SK are far better than paladin tanks.

Lol …

-They share the same melee tables.
-They have the same hp returns on stamina.
-They have the same ac softcaps.
-Their gearing choices are near identical.
-They will both face the same struggles juggling mana depending on buffs/group.
-They both lock and hold aggro equally well
-They are basically equal with regards to ease of healing until you factor in the below.
-from a tanking standpoint both are preferable to most all other classes as you have a plate tank with fully controllable, on demand aggro lock

SK pros:
-invis (instaclick if you have a prenerf)
-FD
-potential for dot DPS, but you probably won’t have the mana to use it often
-potential for pet DPS … but you rarely see them using it and it is mild
-inefficient but somewhat effective self healing potential (best is 1.5 hp per mana)
-buff proc for lifetap (quite good) cheap cast 20 min duration 50hp tap proc - does net an average of 100hp heal (about 10/tick) per minute combat for low cost
-snare +/- fear
-epic and greenmist procs are legit cool but ToV raid weapons are rot vs budget

SK cons:
-no root
-no blast heals or out of combat heals
-can’t heal others
-no cleric line of buffs (adds lots of value depending on group)
-no stun
-no rez
-no lull
-aggro spells less mana efficient
-no Yaulp

Paladin pros:
-capable at healing self and others (3.11/3.88 hp per mana HoT vs 2.1hp mana blast)
-clicky DW helm/BP for cheesy OP healing
-can stun
-can lull
-can root (tank powered crowd control - sk lacks)
-can cast unique hp buff and cleric line
-can rez
-super cheap aggro spam spell options (flash of light)
-Yaulp $$
-emergency LoH complete heal
-instaclick complete heals

Paladin cons:
-no FD
-no snare
-no innate invis capabilities
-fewer options to ramp up dps on demand
-no fear kiting

—————————————

Prior to level 59 in a pure routine tank and spank situation with 1 mob in camp and 1 mob hitting the tank, I’ll give the slight advantage to the SK as the passive lifetap procs will have them self healing efficiently and passively. After 59, even ignoring LoH and Cheal clicky, it isn’t even close. With a rapid cast time a paladin can self heal 700-875hp for 225 mana. At 60 the SK will spend that same 225 mana for a 338hp heal … and at level 59 would be spending 189 mana for a 226.

Between fights? Sk ain’t healing anyone (self or other) out of combat. Paladin can use mana for self heals … or 45+ has hugely OP clicky heals on self and others.

But remember - things get messy. Paladins can use cheap root for CC if multiples are in camp thus avoiding unnecessary extra damage on self/others, can stun casters on demand to keep fights shorter (no healing mobs) or avoid nasty damaging spells.

————————

Lol at Rimitto thinking SKs are the superior tank or placing paladins below rangers? Sorry, but for MOST content the list of tanking power in group situations is actually …

1. Paladin
2. SK (** Warrior)
3. Monk/ranger (**Warrior)
4. Bard (** Warrior)

** depends entirely on how well geared Warrior is from a threat generating standpoint. A very well geared Warrior beats them all for straight up dps and toe to toe tanking … Paladin will win by a college mile due to the abundance of #other they can do.

[Toxigen]

Rim is the most vocal noob I've ever seen here.

Guy is clueless...


...or trolling.

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Rim is the most vocal noob I've ever seen here.

Guy is clueless...


...or trolling.

Master troll but doing great things for Ranger PR.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Master troll but doing great things for Ranger PR.

A counter argument is that he risking Ranger reputation by totally over-selling how good they are at tanking?

A counter to that counter argument is that no risk exists because the community knows he is full of BS?

/popcorn


I still vote monk/necro/shaman.

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A counter argument is that he risking Ranger reputation by totally over-selling how good they are at tanking?

A counter to that counter argument is that no risk exists because the community knows he is full of BS?

/popcorn


I still vote monk/necro/shaman.

You can’t risk what you don’t have (Rep)
Nobody believes rangers can tank stuff.

I take far more heat for ranger dps comments [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Troxx]

Yeah it never ceases to amaze me just how badly a higher level drolvarg guardian in KC can beat down my 59 fungi/chloro/SLN Ranger at times (bad luck) without an early slow proc. My monk, paladin, and warrior never had issues 55+ with those mobs unslowed. I’d say the same for my bard in that it took less damage per unit time … but with craptastic dps the fights solo lasted longer.

Rangers have snap aggro. With a healer they can get the job done for sure … but they take a lot more damage than alternatives (gear being equal).

[Solist]

Dude my ranger has/had vulak gear and red legs and stacked AC. Absolutely stacked it…. Since abandoned that build and stacked HP. Doze ear/fesh neck/koi orb/telk ring etc deleted. Still wear vulak boots for the resists but I think that’s only 0hp item. Spent a lot of time seeing what they could be capable of. Haha what a waste.

Doesn’t tank face to face any mob as good as a 55 monk in cheap tradable EC gear. With like 1300ac she takes the same or more damage on every test.

She also takes identical damage to when she has at 900ac

Rangers are broken on p99. At all levels they’re just broken. The stat does nothing for them past like a tiny worn cap of like 80 or something.

Both my rangers tank identically as they currently sit. One has 200ac more.

Yet AC is the best possible stat for nearly every other class for most gameplay.

[Ripqozko]

Originally Posted by Solist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Dude my ranger has/had vulak gear and red legs and stacked AC. Absolutely stacked it…. Since abandoned that build and stacked HP. Doze ear/fesh neck/koi orb/telk ring etc deleted. Still wear vulak boots for the resists but I think that’s only 0hp item. Spent a lot of time seeing what they could be capable of. Haha what a waste.

Doesn’t tank face to face any mob as good as a 55 monk in cheap tradable EC gear. With like 1300ac she takes the same or more damage on every test.

She also takes identical damage to when she has at 900ac

Rangers are broken on p99. At all levels they’re just broken. The stat does nothing for them past like a tiny worn cap of like 80 or something.

Both my rangers tank identically as they currently sit. One has 200ac more.

Yet AC is the best possible stat for nearly every other class for most gameplay.

Rangers tank badly cause of broken ac, they do however dps better than most know with cek sword , 1h is garbage.

[Jimjam]

I’ve found rangers are almost entirely reliant on spell AC to tank. I swear unbuffed mine gets ragdolled even compared to my wizard. Lol.

[Rimitto]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Animation pet was OP during p99's early years, doesn't seem like Rimitto was playing during that time though. If you're playing mostly AFK and just camping a single spawn the pet is still useful, can unload your mana bar on direct damage spells while the pet tanks, return to AFK, then when you get back you're full mana with a pet still ready to go. Also if you're grouping somewhere that only has higher level MOBs compared to your level, then charm will break a lot and it can be nice to just use the animation to add safe DPS.

actually, that's more or less 1:1 how I used my animations. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I'm not stupid cindy, I know monsters do 'more' damage in some cases, but animations are far more reliable, and in some situations, reliability trumps dps.
If magic were a weapon, the animation spells would have the finesse quality on it. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'll give an example, albeit an odd one. I could go to seafury island, charm something, watch both monsters die and then go for the snipe double-kill. This leaves me with less mana but then I repeat the process.
Alternatively I could take the exp-hit, summon an animation, and just rely on that to kill seafurries. There's no risk of charm break, or wasting of any mana to double-kill at the end. The exp loss is definitely there, but is easily rectified by adding 1 other person to a party. Even without that party, it's still faster in the sense that I can focus more on keeping a steady flow of exp rather than deep diving into charm double-kill hope-it-works tactics. (this is the #1 cause of enchanter deaths, don't even argue that charmbreak isn't)
It's simply a question of steady vs risky from my point of view.
I prefer steady.
people that choose risky just simply cannot understand that methods outside of trying to kill yourself in the stupidest way possible exist.
in example: hurrdurr don't mind me, I"m just gonna charm this super GM mob, give him maximum haste, dual-wield him, give him buffs, yup he's a murder machine noCHARMBREAK ohshitsohstihoshit. *proceeds to blame the cleric*

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yes they do. Exact same HP/AC/Defense formulas and skillcaps.

And the big thing you were trying to talk about before was aggro and crowd control. How are SK's doing that better?

Well offhand, I figure they probably have better dps. I've only seen and experienced SK as tanks before, and only have experience as paladin. I've experienced other paladin tanks as well before, so I understand that paladin is mostly a 1-trick pony relying on blind/darkness. I'm assuming SK probably gets additional aggro from their spells, and probably have a decent assortment of weapons that are generally more focused on higher dps, which naturally would get them far more aggro.

as far as HP/AC/Defense, I simply do not see them being comparable in any way shape or form. I'll even take it a step further to add insult to injury on this one. If you're comparing a human paladin to a troll shadowknight, the regen factor alone is going to make the SK better. If you're comparing an dwarven paladin to an ogre shadowknight, the fact that ogres have frontal stun immunity is going to make a world of difference.
It's just a simple matter of logistics that the evil races getting shadowknight are simply better at tanking because of their racial bonuses.
We can keep going by comparing an erudite paladin to an iksar shadowknight if you want....

They're better at tanking, just admit it.

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm assuming you must mean DPS when you say "their ability to drain".

Yeah I prefer SK's as a whole because they do more DPS and fear kiting can be very strong. That doesn't mean they are a better "tank". Against really hard NPC's the Paladin healing is better too, SK spells get resisted.

combined with the above reasons of why SK are better tanks, the "ability to drain" aka lifetap line, doesn't break them out of combat, like paladins would need to do. They don't change targets either. One thing I've noticed, maybe you could explain, is that whenever I'm in combat with my paladin and go to heal, after the heal he tries to "makeup" the rounds he's missed in the next round. Usually since he's self-targetting, the extra hits get nullified. This wouldn't happened with lifetap abilities since the targeting never changes.

You may be noticing at this point that I'm making quite a few small points here and there. What I'm truly getting at is that every single one of these small things adds up to a greater whole. Every single one of these small details is what makes SK the better tank. That's why it's recognizable to me, who is always picky about the small things, that there's a huge difference between paladin and shadowknight.

Even rangers are better overall tanks when properly geared.
notice the wording I used there... "overall tanks".. You mentioned earlier that there are specific cases where paladins are better, but this isn't a "what is better" topic it's the "what is best" topic, which means that you are REQUIRED to at minimum, look at all the possible spots that each class would be applied to. That means in the 10's, the 20's, the 30's, the 40's, the 50's, and 60's.

If you're going to argue raid tank, then that's well outside the concept of "best trio".