religion

[leewong]

Originally Posted by G13 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Can't be proven to exist beyond a book? Now that's a hilarious strawman if there was ever was one. At least you're actually trying now instead of hiding behind attempts at being a shitty comedian

The ATP Synthase Molecule must exist before Life can exist

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How did it build itself

I also like how you keep claiming the existence of God is only based upon a book, yet shitty comedians like you will point to the textbooks, or hoaxes like peppered moths/Piltdown man and claim Evolution is 100% fact and tested science.

Hilarious

"Today's bioenergetic process of fermentation is carried out by either the aforementioned citric acid cycle or the Acetyl-CoA pathway, both of which have been connected to the primordial iron-sulfur world. In a different approach, the thermosynthesis hypothesis considers the bioenergetic process of chemiosmosis, which plays an essential role in cellular respiration and photosynthesis, more basal than fermentation: the ATP synthase enzyme, which sustains chemiosmosis, is proposed as the currently extant enzyme most closely related to the first metabolic process.[170][171]

First, life needed an energy source to bring about the condensation reaction that yielded the peptide bonds of proteins and the phosphodiester bonds of RNA. In a generalization and thermal variation of the binding change mechanism of today's ATP synthase, the "first protein" would have bound substrates (peptides, phosphate, nucleosides, RNA 'monomers') and condensed them to a reaction product that remained bound until after a temperature change it was released by thermal unfolding.

The energy source under the thermosynthesis hypothesis was thermal cycling, the result of suspension of protocells in a convection current, as is plausible in a volcanic hot spring; the convection accounts for the self-organization and dissipative structure required in any origin of life model. The still ubiquitous role of thermal cycling in germination and cell division is considered a relic of primordial thermosynthesis.

By phosphorylating cell membrane lipids, this "first protein" gave a selective advantage to the lipid protocell that contained the protein. This protein also synthesized a library of many proteins, of which only a minute fraction had thermosynthesis capabilities. As proposed by Dyson,[172] it propagated functionally: it made daughters with similar capabilities, but it did not copy itself. Functioning daughters consisted of different amino acid sequences.

Whereas the iron-sulfur world identifies a circular pathway as the most simple—and therefore assumes the existence of enzymes—the thermosynthesis hypothesis does not even invoke a pathway, and does not assume the existence of regular enzymes: ATP synthase's binding change mechanism resembles a physical adsorption process that yields free energy,[173] rather than a regular enzyme's mechanism, which decreases the free energy. The RNA world also implies the existence of several enzymes. It has been claimed that the emergence of cyclic systems of protein catalysts is implausible.[174]"

There is the answer for you. Hope you understand it.

[G13]

Originally Posted by leewong [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The mutations are random. I will give you that. You forgot about one thing. Natural selection. Would you expect to find an unordered library? What do you think happens to an organism if it has unordered DNA?

Life has had trillions and trillions and trillions of random mutations either selected for or against by nature. That is what arranges the library. If you follow a species heritage backwards you will see every single generation that spans back to the first cell produced that library. Not by random chance alone but by being forged by their surrounding environment.

On the contrary I was hoping you would bring Natural Selection up

Let's talk about that shall we?

All Natural Selection proves is that weak life forms die. It is a principle of breeding. Not Evolution. It is also a destructive principle. Not a creative principle. It doesn't write new legible genetic code that creates a new form of life never before seen on the planet.

[leewong]

Originally Posted by G13 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

......

"How does ordered, structured and purposeful code write itself randomly from nothing?"

Who in the hell claims the entire 10k library popped up from nothing? It started very simple and worked it's way to its current state over a 3.5 billion year span. You cant even fathom 3.5 billions years...10k is nothing.

"Not only that, but because of certain laws that govern the universe, data and information degrade over time, so to claim that information that magically writes itself becomes more ordered and complex over time violates basic fundamental principles that government The Universe"

The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of an isolated system never decreases, because isolated systems always evolve toward thermodynamic equilibrium, a state with maximum entropy.

Well, I guess the sun throws your whole closed system right out the window. The sun is constantly adding energy into the system. There goes your theory.

[G13]

Originally Posted by leewong [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"Today's bioenergetic process of fermentation is carried out by either the aforementioned citric acid cycle or the Acetyl-CoA pathway, both of which have been connected to the primordial iron-sulfur world. In a different approach, the thermosynthesis hypothesis considers the bioenergetic process of chemiosmosis, which plays an essential role in cellular respiration and photosynthesis, more basal than fermentation: the ATP synthase enzyme, which sustains chemiosmosis, is proposed as the currently extant enzyme most closely related to the first metabolic process.[170][171]

First, life needed an energy source to bring about the condensation reaction that yielded the peptide bonds of proteins and the phosphodiester bonds of RNA. In a generalization and thermal variation of the binding change mechanism of today's ATP synthase, the "first protein" would have bound substrates (peptides, phosphate, nucleosides, RNA 'monomers') and condensed them to a reaction product that remained bound until after a temperature change it was released by thermal unfolding.

The energy source under the thermosynthesis hypothesis was thermal cycling, the result of suspension of protocells in a convection current, as is plausible in a volcanic hot spring; the convection accounts for the self-organization and dissipative structure required in any origin of life model. The still ubiquitous role of thermal cycling in germination and cell division is considered a relic of primordial thermosynthesis.

By phosphorylating cell membrane lipids, this "first protein" gave a selective advantage to the lipid protocell that contained the protein. This protein also synthesized a library of many proteins, of which only a minute fraction had thermosynthesis capabilities. As proposed by Dyson,[172] it propagated functionally: it made daughters with similar capabilities, but it did not copy itself. Functioning daughters consisted of different amino acid sequences.

Whereas the iron-sulfur world identifies a circular pathway as the most simple—and therefore assumes the existence of enzymes—the thermosynthesis hypothesis does not even invoke a pathway, and does not assume the existence of regular enzymes: ATP synthase's binding change mechanism resembles a physical adsorption process that yields free energy,[173] rather than a regular enzyme's mechanism, which decreases the free energy. The RNA world also implies the existence of several enzymes. It has been claimed that the emergence of cyclic systems of protein catalysts is implausible.[174]"

There is the answer for you. Hope you understand it.

Pure nonsense. Lot of pretty words though.

Read above. Even to build the simplest proteins require mathematical odds that are an impossibility. There needs to be an exact sequence of 123 amino acids with 20 different types to choose from. What is your source for shit you are pasting that you don't understand?

It mentions photosynthesis. How did photosynthesis come about? Do you understand how the complex design for photosynthesis? The information you posted broad brushes extremely important details to come to it's conclusions as well as some wild assumptions and speculations. For example their "energy source" to make these wild assumptions even remotely plausible is a "volcanic hot spring" while offhandedly dismissing the implausibility that ATP Synthase Molecule would randomly structure itself in such perfect order with every functioning part working in complete symbiosis with one another. If any of these parts were to break down in it's formation it wouldn't work.

It's a very complex molecule and motor that is far more complex than anything Man has ever created. How did it form itself? The gibberish you copy/pasted never addresses that

[G13]

Originally Posted by leewong [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"How does ordered, structured and purposeful code write itself randomly from nothing?"

Who in the hell claims the entire 10k library popped up from nothing? It started very simple and worked it's way to its current state over a 3.5 billion year span. You cant even fathom 3.5 billions years...10k is nothing.

"Not only that, but because of certain laws that govern the universe, data and information degrade over time, so to claim that information that magically writes itself becomes more ordered and complex over time violates basic fundamental principles that government The Universe"

The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of an isolated system never decreases, because isolated systems always evolve toward thermodynamic equilibrium, a state with maximum entropy.

Well, I guess the sun throws your whole closed system right out the window. The sun is constantly adding energy into the system. There goes your theory.

How did it write itself?

Time is not a plausible answer. Time doesn't write genetic code.

Our Planet and Sun are not a closed system. Laws that govern the entire universe apply to everything contained within it. The Sun is a destructive force and very random. Ever seen what it does to roofs of cars and houses? How about the damage it does to your skin? You're bringing up nonsense that has already been swatted aside.

[Faron]

I don't know, so it must have been magical man in the sky. FUCKIN DERRRRRRRR

[Aviann]

Originally Posted by G13 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

10K books in ONE strand of DNA. Can you read?

The perimeters that you outline are pure fantasy. How does ordered, structured and purposeful code write itself randomly from nothing? Not only that, but because of certain laws that govern the universe, data and information degrade over time, so to claim that information that magically writes itself becomes more ordered and complex over time violates basic fundamental principles that government The Universe

I know that's probably way over your head so let's just talk simple proteins. A simple protein (not even creating life just one part of many complex parts needed) requires a precise sequence of 125 amino acid molecules with 20 types to choose from. The odds of every piece forming into the exact sequence needed is 4 x 10 to the 162nd power. In other words a mathematical impossibility.

So how did they magically form in the primordial goo and create life from Nothing?

I read just fine, thank you. But I'll leave this for you here to dwell on, unless you are so certain a fake deity created you that you blatantly refuse to check out the shit that can be fathomable. Enjoy.

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[leewong]

Originally Posted by G13 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

....

"All Natural Selection proves is that weak life forms die. "

Ughh, were do you come up with this crap? Natural selection doesnt prove weak life forms die. Dont be dense. If an organism can live long enough to procreate then it is going to pass along it's DNA. Nature works with what it's got. Put a large species on a small island and in a few hundred generations they will be smaller in stature. Smaller organisms eat less so it is a favored trait in harsh times.

"It doesn't write new legible genetic code"

Wrong. Scientists have even seen it in the lab.

"It is hard to understand how anyone could make this claim, since anything mutations can do, mutations can undo. Some mutations add information to a genome; some subtract it. Creationists get by with this claim only by leaving the term "information" undefined, impossibly vague, or constantly shifting. By any reasonable definition, increases in information have been observed to evolve. We have observed the evolution of increased genetic variety in a population (Lenski 1995; Lenski et al. 1991) increased genetic material (Alves et al. 2001; Brown et al. 1998; Hughes and Friedman 2003; Lynch and Conery 2000; Ohta 2003) novel genetic material (Knox et al. 1996; Park et al. 1996) novel genetically-regulated abilities (Prijambada et al. 1995)

If these do not qualify as information, then nothing about information is relevant to evolution in the first place."

There you go...research papers and all. Tested and verified.

[G13]

Originally Posted by Aviann [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I read just fine, thank you. But I'll leave this for you here to dwell on, unless you are so certain a fake deity created you that you blatantly refuse to check out the shit that can be fathomable. Enjoy.

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Dodge noted

Have a great day. Take care

[FoxxHound]

Originally Posted by Aviann [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I read just fine, thank you. But I'll leave this for you here to dwell on, unless you are so certain a fake deity created you that you blatantly refuse to check out the shit that can be fathomable. Enjoy.

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Soooo are you a scientologist? Cause that would be p hawt. I'd let you jump on my couch [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]