Sirken's proposal

[Mezzmur]

You're all gay, btw.

Originally Posted by Mezzmur [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For those late to the party.

Take TMO/FE Proposal that was originally posted with 7 day hands off, move that to 10, move Sirken's Mob list instead of TMO/FE's, ADD Sirken's PNP, Take TMO/FE No In-game Poopsock Rules. Tier 2 can have a rotation if they want, up to them. Tier 1 attacks Tier 2 on First 10 Days, Second 20 days Tier 1 on Tier 1....... YOU GET THIS:

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

100% Fair to All, Tier 2 gets MORE mobs than Tier 1, and Tier 2 can attack Tier 1 mobs on the second 20 days. Someone decide rules on how you shift tier 1 and 2. If you don't like this idea you're donkers!

[falkun]

Effort = Reward: Half the server is casual, half the server is FFA. Put your effort in that 50% or not, IDGAF.

[Elements]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Effort = Reward: Half the server is casual, half the server is FFA. Put your effort in that 50% or not, IDGAF.

Take a free mob first spawn of the month and have competiton thereafter.

[Razdeline]

Sadly I think many people are are not taking a step back, and logically thinking of the philosophy that made EQ great.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Razdeline [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Sadly I think many people are are not taking a step back, and logically thinking of the philosophy that made EQ great.

I have thought a lot on this subject, and when I think of EverQuest, I think of community. I think about what we have now in most MMOs, and how it has been destroyed through instancing the world. But I know EverQuest was a game that lived in a duality.

I once wrote on the /r/EQNext page about how I believe The Oasis of Marr, from a design standpoint, is the most telling, and wonderful zone in EverQuest. What you have in EverQuest, more than any other MMO today, is a system which Keohane and Nye would refer to as "Complex Interdependence". Normally, you have a system in which no one individual can do it all on his or her own, and they rely upon others in some way or another. You need to meet your friend? Well, you need a druid or wizard to help you. Your corpse is trapped down a well? Well, you need a necro to help you. You died and need a rez? Well, you need a cleric to help you. So this created a system in which players really relied upon one another, rather than needing to act independently of one another in a more greedy fashion, as we see exemplified in modern WoW.

This complex interdependence not only works between classes, but between levels, as higher levels tended to rely upon the lower levels to farm their bone chips, their bat wings, and all that good stuff, while at the same time, the lower levels relied upon the higher levels selling their bronze armor, their buffs, and all that good stuff.

So if you were a douchebag, and a notorious one, you were held socially accountable to people, as you'd start getting less and less help from others around you. People would be nicer to one another, not only because they are good people, but because it is a rationally smarter thing to do, given you must rely on others.

Further, lower level players and higher level players always interacted amongst each other while leveling. You had a Necro, a Cleric, someone on Spectres, an enchanter killing Giants, some high levels dishing out clarity, or killing Cazel while the low levels kill alligators and orcs. That's a level of interconnection you don't see in many games anymore. Instead, you have designated "Area A" for levels 1-5, Area B for 6-10... etc.

The issue I see is that there is very little need for interdependence, as most guilds can be more or less self-contained as you gain more and more power, and as the server continues on and content doesn't come quickly (which is in no way a rag at the speed of Velious, I completely understand, I am just saying that this is an outcome of that understandable fact), it allows for clustering of power which breaks down the complex interdependence between players. So complex interdependence has broken down on the server a good bit, but it also hangs on as many people are here due to nostalgia for this experience. EQ officially destroyed it with the Nexus and the Plane of Knowledge, which gimped a lot of the player interdependence. It was around that time, I believe, that they went to instanced raiding as well. Plane of Time, aye?

Most of that is not terribly relevant to the conversation at hand, but I truly believe that this is the single biggest philosophical contribution EQ did to online gaming, and it was shut down and destroyed by WoW's themepark model.

[Razdeline]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have thought a lot on this subject, and when I think of EverQuest, I think of community. I think about what we have now in most MMOs, and how it has been destroyed through instancing the world. But I know EverQuest was a game that lived in a duality.

I once wrote on the /r/EQNext page about how I believe The Oasis of Marr, from a design standpoint, is the most telling, and wonderful zone in EverQuest. What you have in EverQuest, more than any other MMO today, is a system which Keohane and Nye would refer to as "Complex Interdependence". Normally, you have a system in which no one individual can do it all on his or her own, and they rely upon others in some way or another. You need to meet your friend? Well, you need a druid or wizard to help you. Your corpse is trapped down a well? Well, you need a necro to help you. You died and need a rez? Well, you need a cleric to help you. So this created a system in which players really relied upon one another, rather than needing to act independently of one another in a more greedy fashion, as we see exemplified in modern WoW.

This complex interdependence not only works between classes, but between levels, as higher levels tended to rely upon the lower levels to farm their bone chips, their bat wings, and all that good stuff, while at the same time, the lower levels relied upon the higher levels selling their bronze armor, their buffs, and all that good stuff.

So if you were a douchebag, and a notorious one, you were held socially accountable to people, as you'd start getting less and less help from others around you. People would be nicer to one another, not only because they are good people, but because it is a rationally smarter thing to do, given you must rely on others.

Further, lower level players and higher level players always interacted amongst each other while leveling. You had a Necro, a Cleric, someone on Spectres, an enchanter killing Giants, some high levels dishing out clarity, or killing Cazel while the low levels kill alligators and orcs. That's a level of interconnection you don't see in many games anymore. Instead, you have designated "Area A" for levels 1-5, Area B for 6-10... etc.

The issue I see is that there is very little need for interdependence, as most guilds can be more or less self-contained as you gain more and more power, and as the server continues on and content doesn't come quickly (which is in no way a rag at the speed of Velious, I completely understand, I am just saying that this is an outcome of that understandable fact), it allows for clustering of power which breaks down the complex interdependence between players.

Most of that is not terribly relevant to the conversation at hand, but I truly believe that this is the single biggest philosophical contribution EQ did to online gaming, and it was shut down and destroyed by WoW's themepark model.

Finally someone that gets it. And this is finally happening. People are being held accountable, the community is solving the problem, and a solution is going to be put into place. If everyone can agree to give to eachother(contested & rotations), the service would only give more to the community.

[YendorLootmonkey]

If the barrier to competition on this server is all the herp-derp, what if the herp-derp is removed (either by coding or heavy sanctions as a deterrence?) I think that's how Sirken designed this proposal. How much herp-derp do you have to remove before similarly sized guilds are on equal footing and can no longer use the herp-derp as an excuse as to not participate in the competition?

My issues are that this relies on extremely impartial and objective rulings (Amelinda sort of tainted that for us), accurately interpreted (and filmed) FRAPS, and lack of rules-lawyering, which history has shown us we are not capable of.

[Razdeline]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If the barrier to competition on this server is all the herp-derp, what if the herp-derp is removed (either by coding or heavy sanctions as a deterrence?) I think that's how Sirken designed this proposal. How much herp-derp do you have to remove before similarly sized guilds are on equal footing and can no longer use the herp-derp as an excuse as to not participate in the competition?

My issues are that this relies on extremely impartial and objective rulings (Amelinda sort of tainted that for us), accurately interpreted (and filmed) FRAPS, and lack of rules-lawyering, which history has shown us we are not capable of.

Originally Posted by Sirken

let players camp outside the orb or at zone in, it still requires guilds to race/compete down to trak. they WILL NOT train shit away and risk a 4 week suspension, did u even see how butthurt a raiding guild was over their recent two weeks? and i believe it was FE's leader that told me 2 weeks could be a death sentence. and if by chance that doesnt work, then we'll disband the offending guild and ban it's leadership. really not sure how you can sit there and honestly think someone will just say "fuck it" and risk all that. Guild Leaders magically become better at managing their members when a single persons actions can effect the entire guild.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by Razdeline [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You forgot that part.

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have thought a lot on this subject, and when I think of EverQuest, I think of community. I think about what we have now in most MMOs, and how it has been destroyed through instancing the world. But I know EverQuest was a game that lived in a duality.

I once wrote on the /r/EQNext page about how I believe The Oasis of Marr, from a design standpoint, is the most telling, and wonderful zone in EverQuest. What you have in EverQuest, more than any other MMO today, is a system which Keohane and Nye would refer to as "Complex Interdependence". Normally, you have a system in which no one individual can do it all on his or her own, and they rely upon others in some way or another. You need to meet your friend? Well, you need a druid or wizard to help you. Your corpse is trapped down a well? Well, you need a necro to help you. You died and need a rez? Well, you need a cleric to help you. So this created a system in which players really relied upon one another, rather than needing to act independently of one another in a more greedy fashion, as we see exemplified in modern WoW.

This complex interdependence not only works between classes, but between levels, as higher levels tended to rely upon the lower levels to farm their bone chips, their bat wings, and all that good stuff, while at the same time, the lower levels relied upon the higher levels selling their bronze armor, their buffs, and all that good stuff.

So if you were a douchebag, and a notorious one, you were held socially accountable to people, as you'd start getting less and less help from others around you. People would be nicer to one another, not only because they are good people, but because it is a rationally smarter thing to do, given you must rely on others.

Further, lower level players and higher level players always interacted amongst each other while leveling. You had a Necro, a Cleric, someone on Spectres, an enchanter killing Giants, some high levels dishing out clarity, or killing Cazel while the low levels kill alligators and orcs. That's a level of interconnection you don't see in many games anymore. Instead, you have designated "Area A" for levels 1-5, Area B for 6-10... etc.

The issue I see is that there is very little need for interdependence, as most guilds can be more or less self-contained as you gain more and more power, and as the server continues on and content doesn't come quickly (which is in no way a rag at the speed of Velious, I completely understand, I am just saying that this is an outcome of that understandable fact), it allows for clustering of power which breaks down the complex interdependence between players. So complex interdependence has broken down on the server a good bit, but it also hangs on as many people are here due to nostalgia for this experience. EQ officially destroyed it with the Nexus and the Plane of Knowledge, which gimped a lot of the player interdependence. It was around that time, I believe, that they went to instanced raiding as well. Plane of Time, aye?

Most of that is not terribly relevant to the conversation at hand, but I truly believe that this is the single biggest philosophical contribution EQ did to online gaming, and it was shut down and destroyed by WoW's themepark model.

I actually had very similar thoughts running through my head randomly yesterday, though mostly in the context of class interactions not levels and such. A game like WoW might "gain" something with more mechanics used in every fight, but it loses even more by removing some of the roles EQ had (debuffer, buffer, CCer, puller)... and that makes the game more boring when there are only 3 roles and their interactions with each other are very limited in scale compared to when you have 7+.