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[SeruScars]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Compromise is defined as an agreement or a settlement of a dispute that is reached by each side making concessions. Unless you see the play nice policy as a form of concession, then there were no concessions made by the hardcore guilds in this arrangement.

The question has laid on the distribution of mobs. We have X number, how do those get divvied up among the server guilds? The style championed by FE/TMO, etc., is the one that is more advantageous to them, the FFA system. Other people remember a classic experience of cooperation. So each side has, in their mind, what their ideal classic server is, and what they want from it.

Lets look at what happens now. You have 4 new repops added, the first two go to casuals. So, before this system, there were X mobs, and now there are X + Y mobs. The hardcores still get X mobs with the same level they did before, but they also get 1/2 Y. So, their total is X + 1/2 Y, meanwhile casuals go from 0 to 1/2 Y, without getting a share of X.


This isn't a compromise. This was a gain for the hardcore raiders more than anything. If a casual guild wants to do anything but go along for these 2 repops (which should last, what, 4 to 6 hours if you count both together, depending on how long it takes?), they are still required to play on the hardcore raider's terms.

This is in no way even close to concessions on both sides, this is casuals accepting and giving up any hope on creating their classic experience because the hardcore guilds wouldn't compromise on anything. After all, they owned the server, and now they get to own the server, and half the repops.

Good fucking grief. Does your misery know no bounds?

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by SeruScars [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Good fucking grief. Does your misery know no bounds?

Misery? No. This is a game for me. I am not feeling anything, as this game does not hold emotional sway over me. I am articulating the problem here, and why this does not qualify as a compromise by definition. Please, argue against the logic if you have an argument, otherwise do not attack the person. It is a logical fallacy. I am a political scientist by profession, so these type of arrangements are something I have spent a great deal of time looking into. And that said, this is not, by definition, a compromise.

[Rhambuk]

casuals get a guaranteed 2 full respawns a month, and vox nag the rest of the month.

Though hardcores may be getting more targets they certainly aren't going to be making as many sales on epic mq's.

now that casual guilds know they have a reasonable shot at the raid mob I think they would be willing to try and get the drop legitimately instead of spending 250k plat.

also the casual guilds can sell epic mq rots to non raiders and buy epic bits from tmo to gear up themselves, nice trade off there.

its hardly anything to complain about as most casuals don't want to raid every single day or even every single week for that matter.

[Raavak]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So why is the thing that qualifies a guild for Tier 1 attempting to kill a VP dragon?

I guess because for this system you need to draw a line somewhere, and Veeshan's Peak is Kunark's "end game". The end game is where the most heated competition exists; where the hard-core raiders play.

I can see how A-Team might view this, and maybe some in BDA, etc. You had hoped that end game loot would be more accessible after this was settled. But really, that's not Classic.

Honestly, farm Tier 2 targets for half a year and maybe Velious may be close anyway, after which VP will be much more open, and this whole agreement will become moot. If its not out, bust into the Tier 1 rat race.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Rhambuk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

casuals get a guaranteed 2 full respawns a month, and vox nag the rest of the month.

Though hardcores may be getting more targets they certainly aren't going to be making as many sales on epic mq's.

now that casual guilds know they have a reasonable shot at the raid mob I think they would be willing to try and get the drop legitimately instead of spending 250k plat.

also the casual guilds can sell epic mq rots to non raiders and buy epic bits from tmo to gear up themselves, nice trade off there.

its hardly anything to complain about as most casuals don't want to raid every single day or even every single week for that matter.

I did not say it is upsetting, nor am I complaining. I am saying that this is not the solution the server needed to create a lasting reduction to conflict between guilds. The conflict is going to continue, but now when a guild like TMO, or another down the line, is able to monopolize all content, guilds cannot even attempt to do a tactic as shitty as poopsocking to level the playing field. Sure, no one has fun doing it, but that's the type of tactic a more casual guild would have to employ with those power houses. This is like Vietnam giving up their right to use guerrilla warfare, in exchange for some bombers, while the United States still has their entire military, plus an equal number of bombers. Casual guilds are going to have a much harder time on the level playing field than by using guerrilla tactics to get their kills. The bad strategies that casuals had to employ to attempt to compete with the power house guilds are gone, and in exchange, they now get 6 hours of casual play a month, and the rest of the time, the top guilds get proportionally more than they had before. Now, the casual guilds must manage to play the hardcore game if they want to play the game for anything more than 6 hours a month for the 2 repops.

Therefore, no compromise was made other than the surrendering if monopolizing epic content, but that wasn't even completely true, as guilds such as Taken have shown the ability to get in and take out VS, and BDA took out CT a month or so back. So, they went from having most of the epic mobs, to still having most of the epic mobs, with a few of them going to the casuals. This can only be seen as a compromise insofar as you see the hardcores as having a right to exclusively monopolize the content.

That does not fit the criteria for a compromise. Again, this is a step forward, it is more fair than it was, but that only exists because of extra mobs being generated, not from sacrifice of the hardcore side. Therefore, it does not deserve being called a compromise, as it wasn't by definition.

[oldschooltrader]

Originally Posted by SeruScars [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Good fucking grief. Does your misery know no bounds?

i dont think he is complaining at all. Just simply pointing out if you want to call this a compromise, the HC/T1 had to give something up as well ( which they did not, the staff had to invent spawns to give the casuals the mobs the HCs wouldnt share)

the PnP rules were going to change regardless the outcome of talks however thr T1 side used the "tactics" that are being taken away with this change of server policy as their concession.

overall was great for the staff to get the ball rolling on something, for the up and coming T2 guilds make sure u contact Div/BDA about your aspirations as the T2 repop "engagement policy" is being worked on this week n needs to b fair to all casuals

[SeruScars]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Now, the casual guilds must manage to play the hardcore game if they want to play the game for anything more than 6 hours a month for the 2 repops.

The staff is giving you TWO FULL RE-POPS that the RAIDING guilds (vs FAMILY guilds) cannot touch outside of VP/Nag/Vox.

Now you may have to compete against other FAMILY guilds for these targets, so you still aren't satisfied?

[Rhambuk]

2 guaranteed T2 repops, and 1-2 ffa repops. T1 are not going to get all the raid mobs on those last 1-2 repops its not possible even with alt armies, as long as there is some sort of warning which they are working on.

they've also stated that if guilds work better with each other they will lower the variance which again may mean more mobs for casuals outside of repops.

I'm not arguing with you that this isn't a compromise Uteunayr, but your neutral factual tone is making it sound like casuals are getting screwed over and the hardcores are gaining when really hardcores aren't gaining all that much and not losing anything, while casuals are gaining a shitton while losing nothing.

[oldschooltrader]

Originally Posted by SeruScars [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The staff is giving you TWO FULL RE-POPS that the RAIDING guilds (vs FAMILY guilds) cannot touch outside of VP/Nag/Vox.

Now you may have to compete against other FAMILY guilds for these targets, so you still aren't satisfied?

ur not reading his posts

pls go away when u understand how to read

hes saying when the repops are over for the month its all HC FFA all the time

the only time to play "casually" to get a big target are the 6 hours or so we get to handle the repops

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by SeruScars [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The staff is giving you TWO FULL RE-POPS that the RAIDING guilds (vs FAMILY guilds) cannot touch outside of VP/Nag/Vox.

Now you may have to compete against other FAMILY guilds for these targets, so you still aren't satisfied?

6 hours (if that) of playing a casual style (that's all "TWO FULL RE-POPS" comes down to in game time) is what was accepted, when if a compromise did happen, casuals could be casual all month long, and hardcores could be hardcore all month long. No one has to lose, the only thing lost in the staff proposal would be the ability for the hardcore, top tier guilds to shit on those below them, because their kills would be isolated from the others. That's the only compromise that would be made, giving up schadenfreude.

But what currently exists is the same system as before, except that for 6 hours (if it even takes 3 hours per repop, which is way out of proportion, lets be honest) of every month, we get to play in a more casual way. That's not a compromise, and it doesn't deserve to be labelled with that.

Originally Posted by Rhambuk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2 guaranteed T2 repops, and 1-2 ffa repops. T1 are not going to get all the raid mobs on those last 1-2 repops its not possible even with alt armies, as long as there is some sort of warning which they are working on.

they've also stated that if guilds work better with each other they will lower the variance which again may mean more mobs for casuals outside of repops.

I'm not arguing with you that this isn't a compromise Uteunayr, but your neutral factual tone is making it sound like casuals are getting screwed over and the hardcores are gaining when really hardcores aren't gaining all that much and not losing anything, while casuals are gaining a shitton while losing nothing.

This only generates, as I have said, around 6 hours a month (which is generous) of casual play for casual guilds. For the other 726 hours of the month, they need to play in the hardcore style.

From my standpoint, yes, the casuals are getting screwed from the potential of the negotiations. They got more than they had before, but the hardcores gained an equal amount, so very little has changed. Casuals still must play in a hardcore fashion for the *vast* majority of the month, which is going to continue the conflicts between guilds that was the entire purpose (at least originally) of doing all this, to reduce said conflicts. These conflicts wont resolve so long as casuals are forced to play casual if they want to play this game for anything more than 6 hours a month. The same would be true if the entire server went full rotation and full casual, as then the suffering would be on the hardcore players side, requiring them to play a style they don't want, and I'd be arguing for their side, that they should be able to have their hardcore, cutthroat competition, because everyone should be able to get a classic experience, not just hardcores, not just casuals. Both have a classic experience, either hardcore competition, or more cooperative, friendly competition, or even server rotations. The staff plan provided for this, but instead we get more of the same, and that is not likely to create a long term reduction of conflict, since the casuals only get to be casual 6 hours of the month.

I am not saying I am going to cause trouble or any shit like that, this is just a game to me and honestly not that serious, but from a pure scientific standpoint, it is irrational for the casuals to accept giving up the ability to use devious ploys to level the playing field, in return for 6 hours of casual play a month. Casual guilds are not going to be able to mobilize and form as fast as TMO/FE/IB, not even close to as well as they could utilize main/alt camping, and other styles of more "guerrilla" competition. This deal (not compromise) doesn't solve the major issues of conflict, and it removes a great number of teeth that the casual guilds had, in exchange for 6 out of 732 hours of casual play.

Again, a stepping stone forward, but not a compromise.