Green should disallow GINA

[dekova]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In regards to GINA and log readers: if there was no other realistic means to ban them from Green, would it really be so bad to disable player logs entirely? Would most players miss that functionality? Would the game suddenly become unplayable without real-time DPS meters and such? Somehow I think we'd manage, especially knowing that basically everything worth parsing has already been parsed to death on Blue. At the very least, putting a delay on logging or eliminating the ability of the logs to be read in real time seems worth exploring.

People hand-wave talk about banning gina (and programs like it) like it's easy. I think preventing logs from being written is the only way to do it.

I <3 my logs. Call me weird.

[kylok]

Devil's advocate here... The log file is classic, and client side. Why should we remove a classic feature that isn't being used in a way to give a significant advantage in game (like macroquest or showeq does... I.e. allowing you to do something you could otherwise not do)? We could also remove the hit points display from the inventory window and the game would be entirely playable - we already can't see mana in the green UI. The ultimate answer is the same for the log file... Shit's classic.

We can discuss this till the cows come home but I'd bet good money that the log file stays in, untouched for green.

[Tenlaar]

Originally Posted by kylok [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why should we remove a classic feature that isn't be used in a way to give a significant advantage in game

Not only is it arguable that it doesn't give "significant advantage", it is also inarguable that GINA restores at least one advantage that the people who run the server specifically removed from the client because it's not supposed to be there.

[kylok]

I understand that buff timers are not displayed in game. But we're splitting hairs arguing whether you should have to manually set an egg timer or use a program to set an egg timer automatically.

[Tenlaar]

Originally Posted by kylok [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I understand that buff timers are not displayed in game. But we're splitting hairs arguing whether you should have to manually set an egg timer or use a program to set an egg timer automatically.

We're not talking about "an egg timer." Don't overly simplify what GINA provides.

[Vexenu]

What do people use logs for besides GINA? I'm honestly wondering. I've never used the logging feature in all my years of EQ, both on Live and on P1999. I have a hard time seeing how logging adds enough to the player experience to be left intact if it is mostly just being used to run what is basically a de facto cheat program outside the client.

If a feature is classic and can be used for perfectly legitimate functions but in practice is being used 95% of the time to circumvent client limitations, should it be retained or removed? I don't know the answer to that question. I am curious what others think. But that appears to be the situation here: logging is classic, but serves very few practical purposes at this point on P1999 besides feeding GINA, which is terribly unclassic.

Honestly I think boxing is the best analog here. Boxing is entirely classic, and yet is banned on P1999 servers. Why? Because free player accounts and hardware advances make boxing much, much easier than it was back in the day. And if you allow boxing then even people who don't like boxing are essentially forced to box if they want to compete with the boxers. And soon everyone on the server is boxing, which is not remotely classic. And so boxing is banned here even though it was allowed in classic, explicitly to preserve the integrity of the classic experience in the face of the realities of the present day gaming environment.

I think that utilizing whatever means (including removing logging from Green entirely) would serve a similar function. You remove a feature that is classic because if you don't it will be abused so extensively that the effects will be broadly unclassic. It is undoubtedly the lesser of two evils, especially since logging itself has no direct gameplay impact, while GINA has a large one.

[Izmael]

Logs are of paramount importance and must be kept as a feature. Without logs, we'd be struggling to find evidence for a lot of stuff here.

As I said in a previous message, a simple solution would be to delay flushing the logs to disk by a random amount of time, somewhere between 1 and 30 minutes. Also flush on zoning, /q, disconnect and camp. Do it on Green only. If people want to mess around on Blue with GINA and solo Naggy or whatever on their 5k hp monks - go for it, Blue is the place for it. But Green = classic, hard mode.

This way, we preserve the logging feature, but we essentially disable GINA and similar third party programs that give an unfair advantage.

[Glasken]

Originally Posted by Ashenden [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I love that when people disagree with a change they take it to the absolute extreme via things like resolution and internet speed to try and make it sound dumb.

Is there a name for that kind of argument?

Reductio ad Absurdum, a common thing nowadays especially in political ... lets call them "discussions". The goal is to reduce a point to its most simplistic state and then take it to 11 on the absurdity scale, in order to prove that the point itself is silly.

It is also a low form of debate and is often used as a haughty dismissal rather than a tool to add to a discussion, but that's just like, my opinion, man.

[dussle27]

Seems a bit unfair considering most players have been disallowed vaGINA their whole lives.

[dekova]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What do people use logs for besides GINA?

Fair question.

I keep logs to see:

• how many kills per level
• what the average loot drops are for specific mobs
• what my skill levels were (before they got displayed in the UI)
• check /auc sellers and prices for an item
• parse damage with different weapons
• the frequency of mob placeholders
• etc.