******Official politics thread ******

[Lune]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In my experience, I have never learned something or developed a skill by way of someone else doing that thing for me. I have seen similar results with those I've taught and those others have taught. People do not learn without doing. Outside perhaps a very few exceptional individuals, the first step to success is almost always failure and overcoming those obstacles on one's own is absolutely necessary. Others can offer advice, guidance, correction, explanation, demonstration, but learning itself is an internal process.

If I do your math homework for you, you will receive good marks, so long as I continue to do so. What is the likelihood of my continued aid ever helping you learn to do math? (I'm sure you would receive exceptional marks on your own, that not the point ^^)

That same analogy can be applied to work and play and every other activity and it is one reason why I do not believe that the simple act of giving people money necessarily enables them in to amass or even acquire more of it.

Basic income is not something being "done for you". It does absolutely nothing to get in the way of learning processes or personal development. In fact, it is conducive to these things because it provides people OPTIONS. Rather than taking two or three part time exploitative jobs just to keep above water, they are free to bargain the price of their own labor in an extremely liberating way. "Nah I'm not gonna take a job flipping burgers at McDonalds for $7 an hour because I don't need to. Instead I'm going to learn how to paint or mix music and sell that" or "Instead I'm going to try to start a business grooming dogs because I LOVE animals". Of course some people will say "I'm gonna stay at home and do jack shit", but they probably would have anyway, and it's not like they were contributing much at their meaningless low-skill job. And honestly, society would probably shun them for it.

The fundamental premise of basic income isn't that you are just being given money for nothing but that, as an American citizen, you own a share of the national wealth and prosperity that is made on the backs of labor. (Of course they'd have to get rid of birthright citizenship at some point and majorly reform immigration). Kind of like how citizens of Norway or Alaska are cut a dividend check from their national oil companies. (Their societies didn't implode because everyone just stayed home masturbating instead of going to work by the way).

Furthermore, if you look at the children of rich families, or even royalty, going all throughout history, for whom work is entirely optional, you will rarely see them just fuck around and do nothing. It's because cultural and societal expectations of us are FAR STRONGER than whatever drive to "do nothing" exists because you've been given money. What busty heiress is going to fuck little Timmy Johnson of the Johnson & Johnson fortune if he just stays at home all day wanking? No, he's going to learn sailing, literature, and probably how to run parts of his family's business, or philanthropy, because there's more inspiration to life than making money.

And this isn't even touching on the problems posed by automation.

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I simply do not believe that poverty causes people to fail. People become impoverished because they fail. Those who are unfortunate enough to be born into it generally remain there, but all do not. Some find a way out. If poverty were the source of failure, those people would not exist, but they do.

You are wrong in that belief in the vast majority of cases. Failure causes poverty and poverty promotes failure in a state of dynamic equilibrium. You said it yourself. "Those who are unfortunate enough to be born into it generally remain there". That's because, in the vast majority of cases, IT TRAPS PEOPLE, and it takes a real big-dicked gunner to claw their way out. It turns out that when, as a culture and as a government, you provide a stepladder out of poverty, it becomes far less infectious, heritable, and persistent. More people are able to climb out. The inter-generational damage is far less. Providing nutritional assistance to a poor kid because his dipshit mom can't or won't feed him properly isn't going to sabotage the kid. It's probably going to help his brain develop normally, as we know better nutrition as a kid = higher IQ and better health as an adult.

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The reason I reject the authoritarian right is because a government which possesses great power, but fails to adequately temper excellence, will simply be bought by the most successful entireties.

all authoritarian systems will suffer to some degree from adverse selection and corruption, but it is far more difficult for specific entities if the environment does not permit the economic hegemony afforded by a wholly free market.

Living in the US right now often feels like being held back in grade school and watching your classmates go on into the future without you. If the Cold War was seen as a rivalry between market capitalism and communism to see which system is better, I see our current era as a rivalry between cooperative socialism and individualistic libertarianism.

The highly cooperative societies of Europe, Japan, Oceania, etc, are all doing better than us, the ruggedly individualistic United States. You can nitpick all you want about why that is or make predictions about how it's not sustainable or they'll eventually fail, but at the end of the day, they are happier, healthier, and enjoy more practical freedom and liberty than we do.

If you see the fall of the Soviet Union as an indictment of communism/socialism, then you must also necessarily see the decline of the American way of life relative to our peers as mirroring the inferiority of our nascent descent into libertarianism.

[bigjerry]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Basic income is not something being "done for you". It does absolutely nothing to get in the way of learning processes or personal development. In fact, it is conducive to these things because it provides people OPTIONS. Rather than taking two or three part time exploitative jobs just to keep above water, they are free to bargain the price of their own labor in an extremely liberating way. "Nah I'm not gonna take a job flipping burgers at McDonalds for $7 an hour because I don't need to. Instead I'm going to learn how to paint or mix music and sell that" or "Instead I'm going to try to start a business grooming dogs because I LOVE animals". Of course some people will say "I'm gonna stay at home and do jack shit", but they probably would have anyway, and it's not like they were contributing much at their meaningless low-skill job. And honestly, society would probably shun them for it.

The fundamental premise of basic income isn't that you are just being given money for nothing but that, as an American citizen, you own a share of the national wealth and prosperity that is made on the backs of labor. (Of course they'd have to get rid of birthright citizenship at some point and majorly reform immigration). Kind of like how citizens of Norway or Alaska are cut a dividend check from their national oil companies. (Their societies didn't implode because everyone just stayed home masturbating instead of going to work by the way).

Furthermore, if you look at the children of rich families, or even royalty, going all throughout history, for whom work is entirely optional, you will rarely see them just fuck around and do nothing. It's because cultural and societal expectations of us are FAR STRONGER than whatever drive to "do nothing" exists because you've been given money. What busty heiress is going to fuck little Timmy Johnson of the Johnson & Johnson fortune if he just stays at home all day wanking? No, he's going to learn sailing, literature, and probably how to run parts of his family's business, or philanthropy, because there's more inspiration to life than making money.

And this isn't even touching on the problems posed by automation.



You are wrong in that belief in the vast majority of cases. Failure causes poverty and poverty promotes failure in a state of dynamic equilibrium. You said it yourself. "Those who are unfortunate enough to be born into it generally remain there". That's because, in the vast majority of cases, IT TRAPS PEOPLE, and it takes a real big-dicked gunner to claw their way out. It turns out that when, as a culture and as a government, you provide a stepladder out of poverty, it becomes far less infectious, heritable, and persistent. More people are able to climb out. The inter-generational damage is far less. Providing nutritional assistance to a poor kid because his dipshit mom can't or won't feed him properly isn't going to sabotage the kid. It's probably going to help his brain develop normally, as we know better nutrition as a kid = higher IQ and better health as an adult.



Living in the US right now often feels like being held back in grade school and watching your classmates go on into the future without you. If the Cold War was seen as a rivalry between market capitalism and communism to see which system is better, I see our current era as a rivalry between cooperative socialism and individualistic libertarianism.

The highly cooperative societies of Europe, Japan, Oceania, etc, are all doing better than us, the ruggedly individualistic United States. You can nitpick all you want about why that is or make predictions about how it's not sustainable or they'll eventually fail, but at the end of the day, they are happier, healthier, and enjoy more practical freedom and liberty than we do.

If you see the fall of the Soviet Union as an indictment of communism/socialism, then you must also necessarily see the decline of the American way of life relative to our peers as mirroring the inferiority of our nascent descent into libertarianism.

if you read it, you reddit

[bigjerry]

capitalism obfuscates violent competition in nature into a semi-pacifistic mathematical game. remove it from the world power and the predator-prey relations it keeps isolated in fiat videogame world get reintroduced elsewhere.

train the peasants to expect freebies and riot even in the string-puller's red server without them, you incentivize the mass extermination and/or reprogramming of said peons into harmless overhead to placate and dispose of by some less graphic means (bill gates style?). your naivety about human nature renders you an unwitting genocidal lunatic my man.

Let weak people fucking kill themselves. don't make other people do it to those with and without merit based on station of birth.

capitalist world power USA is a containment zone for the dog-eat-dog relations that form the fundamental structure of human interaction. socialist Europe could not exist in stability without a place outside to concentrate real power. socialist Europe is a fucking theme park buddy, pretending you can extrapolate its structure to the system that governs the planet is retarded as fuck. And all your assertions about ppl not sitting at home masturbating, on top of being way too optimistic and ignorant of the average USA citizen's mindstate, are utterly untested anyway; our capacity to jack in and jack off is increasing drastically by the day and i think ur aware of this mister tranny afficianado professional dick-jacker.

this reply is based on skimming your gay post only so sry if I missed sumthin.

[Lune]

Originally Posted by bigjerry [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

capitalism obfuscates violent competition in nature into a semi-pacifistic mathematical game. remove it from the world power and the predator-prey relations it keeps isolated in fiat videogame world get reintroduced elsewhere.

train the peasants to expect freebies and riot even in the string-puller's red server without them, you incentivize the mass extermination and/or reprogramming of said peons into harmless overhead to placate and dispose of by some less graphic means (bill gates style?). your naivety about human nature renders you an unwitting genocidal lunatic my man.

Let weak people fucking kill themselves. don't make other people do it to those with and without merit based on station of birth.

capitalist world power USA is a containment zone for the dog-eat-dog relations that form the fundamental structure of human interaction. socialist Europe could not exist in stability without a place outside to concentrate real power. socialist Europe is a fucking theme park buddy, pretending you can extrapolate its structure to the system that governs the planet is retarded as fuck. And all your assertions about ppl not sitting at home masturbating, on top of being way too optimistic and ignorant of the average USA citizen's mindstate, are utterly untested anyway; our capacity to jack in and jack off is increasing drastically by the day.

this reply is based on skimming your gay post only so sry if I missed sumthin.

Predator-prey, dog-eat-dog, it fascinates me that you view humanity through that lens. I guess we grew up in different neighborhoods.

Nowhere did I propose abolishing capitalism, competition, or entrepreneurship. Europe isn't socialist, they are mixed market economies with socialist elements in both their culture and government, which is what I mean when I call them that.

I think this is one area where fascists and national socialists had it right. Private enterprise and competition were encouraged, even celebrated, but only if it benefited the nation as a whole. Parasitic industry (insurance, (((predatory lending))), (((speculative investment))), were edged out by government institutions which managed these things with the public's best interest in mind (or so they claimed, Nazis were very corrupt), Italians did a little better.

Nothing about universal basic income hinders your ability to conduct private enterprise. It just makes it so that if you want other human beings to work for you, you have to sweeten the deal, instead of trap them.

And you're right, they are untested, that's why so many places are experimenting with basic income. But I fail to see how it could be worse than the welfare we currently have. It is cheaper and better. Funneling all welfare, social security, disability, government pensions, medicare, pell grants, unemployment insurance, etc etc into basic income RIGHT NOW would net something like $18,000 per person above the age of 18 per year or something like that. I calculated it a while ago.

Not to mention you're advocating for a setting where The Tribe can thrive.

[Nilstoniakrath]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you see the fall of the Soviet Union as an indictment of communism/socialism, then you must also necessarily see the decline of the American way of life relative to our peers as mirroring the inferiority of our nascent descent into libertarianism.

You wouldn't know true liberty if it came up and bit you on the a$$. This country hasn't been free in a long time, and it is getting less free every day .

[Ahldagor]

Morons think they know what freedom is in the USA. Limited gov is limited, danke Constitution.

And Trump-Ryan American Healthcare Act or whatever they were calling it has failed in the house thisn time around.

[Pokesan]

Originally Posted by Ahldagor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Morons think they know what freedom is in the USA. Limited gov is limited, danke Constitution.

And Trump-Ryan American Healthcare Act or whatever they were calling it has failed in the house thisn time around.

Trump stumped

[Daywolf]

basic income blah blah Communism. It didn't work last time, not the time before, nor the time before that, always the same outcome but you expect something different next time. uh-huh... wonderful definition of insanity fur sure. Just be content with your moms basement, m'kay?

[bigjerry]

Originally Posted by Daywolf [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

basic income blah blah Communism. It didn't work last time, not the time before, nor the time before that, always the same outcome but you expect something different next time. uh-huh... wonderful definition of insanity fur sure. Just be content with your moms basement, m'kay?

woke.

"wow ur a cynic contrarian edgelord j, u think of ppl like getting power over other ppl? hand absolute authority to the zog state or ur playing into its hands"

ur not in my league kid get at me. u don't understand people at all my man. maybe it's just that I'm a tru alpha and understand how my own mind work and u a lil sheepn@gg@ who gets off on being shoved against a wall by someone who describe themselves as a "futanari"

[Pokesan]

sheeple