Discussion on R99 vs VZTZ **POSTPONED**

[Darksinga]

This is why the potentially new server should have teams and when it merges together with the original red 99, we, as a playerbase can vote off of experience whether or not we should keep team pvp or go back to FFA once the masses catch up. Like I said previously, the great thing about cloning a server is it caters to both sides.

Team PvP will bring much more people to attempt a new server. That news alone will make people realize hey something new is happening. If you created a new server and said FFA same lvl range, slightly boosted xp, no one would care for a fresh start. Do something new and different that will make us feel the pains and joys of a nostalgic team server. If it doesn't work as expected, in a few months down the road upon a merger, change to a FFA ruleset

[Bogart]

Originally Posted by Rokannis [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There's the problem. Because the "minority" has an issue with being teamed with only the best of the best, new players, or inexperienced players have no gateway to succeed or improve. Shunning them from the get go solves nothing. Placing them on your side to improve creates a support system to help players thrive. I'm not sure what your issue is with being teamed with others who clicked "dark elf"? What is wrong with that?

Sides forces communities, FFA pvp or guild pvp lets the players have more choice in shunning others, which causes everyone else to fall short and quit because they can't succeed. Players will be dicks if you have rules that allow them to be dicks. That is the way of gaming. However, if you have only some rules that let players be dicks, but the capability for others to put them in their place, you can find balance.

I meet new people everyday I play. I do pub groups. I trade. I'm new to EQ and I'm still learning this game. I've bumped into way more friendly people than ganks or twink pks on red99. Forced teams don't create community, they simple prevent people from attacking their own team. It'll end up with people stealing spawns and you having no recourse cause they're on "your side". It'll add all the downsides of blue, which end up needing GM supervision.

[Rokannis]

Originally Posted by Nirgon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You mean pick a team like join a guild

Guilds have requirements, applications, leaders, officers, rules, all that jazz. This allows exclusion and to handpick people you want.

Teams puts you on the same side as others from the get go. A sense of team, community, and a "go team [insert side]" to cheer for.

So no, not like join a guild.

[Rokannis]

Originally Posted by Bogart [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I meet new people everyday I play. I do pub groups. I trade. I'm new to EQ and I'm still learning this game. I've bumped into way more friendly people than ganks or twink pks on red99. Forced teams don't create community, they simple prevent people from attacking their own team. It'll end up with people stealing spawns and you having no recourse cause they're on "your side". It'll add all the downsides of blue, which end up needing GM supervision.

With the competitive nature of two other enemies vs your team, it is in the players best interest to not ruin his reputation with his side and to create allys in order to exp, raid, and get pvp help later down the line.

So no, you are wrong, and I've been there, I have seen how this works, as have countless others.

In a team environment if a player is being a dick,, he will ruin his rep with his team. When he dies to the opposing faction, and gets camped, no one will come to his aid. When he wants to exp, no one will help him. However, the players does have the option to change his attitude and try to mend this while still having somewhat of a safety net of not being "booted" off his team. At the end of the day, he's still a part of a collective and can participate as such.

In FFA pvp guild envrionment, if a players ruins his rep, he gets booted out and camped off the server. There is no safety net to change his attitude and your population declines. There also is no PVP safety net for new comers who can't get access to a guild to have protectors while leveling. Also, why care for anyone who is NOT in your guild? They aren't one of you, so fuck them. That is what that ruleset does. Not saying thats how EVERYONE thinks, but by alienating others, the majority chooses to not care about them. However in a team envrionment you are more likely to help people even if they aren't in your guild because they are still a part of your faction. You want your faction to thrive so you can train more soldiers to fight the opposition.

See how that works..?

You can't just have a game with no rules and a free for all. There needs to be structure to move players psychologically in the right direction to create communities, even those outside their guild. Players also need incentives. Now some players don't need an incentive to help, they are just nice, but that will be few and far between and doesn't bolster the community to where it needs to be.

[runlvlzero]

Indeed all the teams servers I played on, especially SZ (played the most there) people would try really hard to help their team. It shifted the focus of the game from "me" to "us" in a general sense. Even when cross teaming was involved it was usually for the benefit of the top dogs of a particular team which in turn benefited those newbies because those top dogs were continually recruiting from the noob pool of their favored teams.

Theres always exceptions and theres even people on FFA just out to ruin your day some how. But that shouldn't deter us from trying a teams server if the Benevolent Dictators are interested =)

<3 U Sirk!

[Rokannis]

Originally Posted by runlvlzero [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Indeed all the teams servers I played on, especially SZ (played the most there) people would try really hard to help their team. It shifted the focus of the game from "me" to "us" in a general sense. Even when cross teaming was involved it was usually for the benefit of the top dogs of a particular team which in turn benefited those newbies because those top dogs were continually recruiting from the noob pool of their favored teams.
!

This guy gets it.

If we also add in the factor that its in a high levels interest to help buff / protect noobs to build more soldiers for his team, we create a brighter more vibrant community who actually sticks around.

I still remember leveling as a newcomer on SZ in Crushbone having high end druids protecting the zone from evil invaders. I used to think..man I wanna be like them. I gave me something to aspire to and drove me to play more. We as humans like to see heroes and work to become them. When others do nice for you, you tend to feed it back as well.

[Bogart]

First off how many games do team pvp? The vast majority of any game with pvp. There is nothing new about it. And it does not work.

You're saying the community will be able to root out assholes, only if they can't attack their own team?

[Rokannis]

Most games do team pvp. However this is usually a 2 sided system. Other games also do mechanics that kill community impact such as instance based PvE / PvP, fast travel, flying mounts etc etc. EQ is different and is the original community game where there are so many things that players have to rely on each other for. That is what made EQ great. So you can't claim other games after EQ as failing simply because they had team based pvp as well. Early WoW team PvP was great, except instances created too big of a safety net. Excessive flying / fast travel methods also kill PvP. When you are immune to PvP interaction when traveling one place to another then zone into an instance, you are doing it wrong.

Teams works in PvP, its already been proven because its already been done and anyone who played on a team server will tell you that it does.

[Rokannis]

Originally Posted by Bogart [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You're saying the community will be able to root out assholes, only if they can't attack their own team?

No, assholes will always exist. The point is to reduce the numbers of assholes by creating an incentive for helping your team win (whether they are in your guild or not). When your helpers are greater than your assholes you can actually start building a community.

[runlvlzero]

Originally Posted by Bogart [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

First off how many games do team pvp? The vast majority of any game with pvp. There is nothing new about it. And it does not work.

You're saying the community will be able to root out assholes, only if they can't attack their own team?

WoW pvp would be far worse off if it didn't have teams. FFA was the least favored pvp in WoW, how much FFA arena goes on? Deathmatch style (not groupvsgroup) zilch its not popular. They even 2v2. Compared to all other forms of pvp.

There are no battlegrounds I played in that were FFA.

The games pvp revolves around Teams to keep players even remotely cohesive and oriented towards a goal other then what their score is at the end of a match. (Its not perfect) but thats what teams does. **Edit and update (addition) I would say that for a game like WoW which is very much every man for himself and zero community teams are extremely successful in fostering teamplay as they were implemented. A lot of people made priests just to get high scores, then figured out by maxing points with healing their score got even higher. These players would otherwise have just made rogues specced in assassination or combat to get the most kills. So it works and gives people who otherwise would miss the big picture incentive to be team players. And develops them. Similar things could be done for EQ. Yet the developers were smart enough to provide an incentive for people to play Holy/Disc priests in pvp. And those guys who got inspired by those classes went on to become awesome pvpers/players (some of the best wow players IMO)

In quake, team play outweighs non team play too, though FFA is more popular because there is no perpetual meaning to winning. In MMO's there is. And thats how teams work, even if by reputation alone.