If you believe in god, you're an idiot...

[chtulu]

Oh, and if anyone has the balls to ask about morality and atheism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSYos...eature=related

[Mardur]

Chtulu keeps ignoring me [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This guy and Pycoba should get together sometime.

<Troll Proof>

[chtulu]

Originally Posted by Mardur [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Chtulu keeps ignoring me [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This guy and Pycoba should get together sometime.

<Troll Proof>

I answered you why. I gave you a link that describes my feelings toward why believing in God is worse, in a social and scientific progression stand point, than NOT believing in a God.

[Alawen Everywhere]

Originally Posted by chtulu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'd be ok with religion if it was all about community and helping others. But when those religions start asking their members to donate money to propagate against gay marriage, or lobby politicians into voting against pro choice and stem cell research, then I have a huge problem with it; and lately religion has really been poking it's nose in things that are not their business other than their own personal principals.

That's interesting and all, but don't be surprised when the (very numerous) members of those monolithic religions are insulted and don't like you.

[chtulu]

That's fine, they can be insulted all they want. Their beliefs shouldn't be anymore protected than the belief of someone's favorite basketball team.

[Daldolma]

I like when people try to pretend that "religion" dictates things like the average American's stance on gay marriage. This is where the frustration comes from. You're lashing out at the wrong bogeyman. Religion isn't the problem. Ignorance is.

Do you honestly think the Church's viewpoint on gay marriage is the reason it's been excluded from American law? If the Pope came out tomorrow and said gay marriage is just as valid as straight marriage, do you think even 1% more of Americans would be willing to vote in favor of gay marriage? Let me spare you the suspense: the answer is no. Ol' Billy Bob in Little Rock isn't voting in favor of gay marriage, period, ever. Homosexuality between adult men had been ridiculed and ostracized for thousands of years before Jesus was ever even born. It's a prejudice that existed long before religion, and would continue to exist thereafter.

Let's move onto capital punishment. Pope John Paul II issued an edict stating that in modern times, capital punishment should be practically obsolete, as it should not be used so long as there is a method to protect society from the offender without putting him to death (ie: imprisonment). Did that change anything in the US? Of course not. The Church is firmly against the use of condoms. Take a look at Trojan's quarterly numbers. Doesn't look like religion is really doing much there, either.

Was Christ a member of the NRA? Because somehow they still have a sizable constituency. Hitler, Stalin, Mao -- they managed to put together some of the most horrific atrocities in the history of our species without citing any religious justification. And literally millions of people cheered them on while they did it.

Organized religion opens its own can of worms -- it's not what this thread was originally about. It's entirely different from "belief in God". But even regarding organized religion, you're giving it more credit than it deserves. In America, when organized religion tells people what they want to hear, they listen. When it doesn't, they don't. It's not 1100 anymore. The vast majority of Americans live their lives based on prejudices and ignorances which are mostly or wholly independent of religion, even if they don't know it. People interpret religion to support whatever they want it to.

You show me where in the Bible it says stem cell research is illegal.

[chtulu]

We have had issues with abortion and pro choice for years. We still aren't funding stem cell research with government money because of the religious aspect of life at conception, yadda yadda yadda.

Also, if you don't think the government on a state level is being influenced by the church then maybe you should look at this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezwIZo-hKiI

It's about how much the mormon church influenced and spent on proposition 8. They directly impacted the votes. In this case, religion impacted government; specifically civil right laws. Don't try to tell me that religion and God is only for personal well being, it encroaches on other lives and their personal beliefs.

[john_savage1982]

Originally Posted by Alawen Everywhere [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Do you understand that pathos and ethos are both parts of rhetoric besides logos? Your entire premise here is that logos is all that matters.

Most people in religion don't care about the dogma and they never read their sacred texts aside from hearing someone drone on about it once a week or whatever. Most organized religion is about socializing and community. Sometimes it's about a really charismatic religious leader.

Many people are much more affected by things like emotion, reputation, authority and tradition than they are by reason and pointing out their lack of reason is insulting to them.

Now can we talk about the giant turtle?

To extend this. When we consider science do you realize how much trust is placed in the findings of others? The scientific method is supposed to insure repeatability but tell me guys, what have you done to personally try and verify the theory of evolution? How many quantum physic experiments have you done? What makes the word of a researcher any more valid then the words of a priest? Because the "science" has been verified? By who? Why do you trust them?

Can you explain exactly, in detail, how a car works, and be able to build one yourself from just raw materials? A television? A computer? A steam engine? Did you drive a vehicle before you learned the science behind how a vehicle was constructed and how it worked? Not just the broad idea - every little tiny mechanism. Did you examine the source code for your OS before you used it and make sure you knew how every tiny part worked? If you do all this stuff then you're some kind of uber-man but for most people there is considerable implicit trust placed in scientific findings and the technology and consumer products that result from the findings.

Perhaps many of you are emotionally-repressed and secretly angry all the time but there is a very rich realm of experiences that can be learned from feeling. Especially in the US, people tend to think of and treat their body like some sort of slave to their mind, however, if you want to look at (science), our body is, for the most part, driving the mind. Concerning feelings though, what makes ones emotional experience of life any less legitimate then the light entering their eyes to create an image or vibrations creating sound? Is it because we can somehow measure and categorize these things that they are more legitimate? Does that seem right/feel right to people?

If you want to reduce human experience and living down to only the scientific facts then you'd be ignoring a large part of being human. Why choose to do that? Religion is largely an emotional experience - which is probably why many of you attack it - and unless you've genuinely experienced religion you're ignorantly attacking something that you don't understand. Look at this entire thread. Everybody here seems caught up in information like gods existence, the evils of the church, reasons why religion shouldn't exist, but nobody is considering how religion makes people feel. What some people call indoctrination and mind control, others call sharing a very beautiful and terrific feeling.

You might notice that the consequences of religion really isn't that different from the consequences of science technology. Nuclear technology can provide energy or it can level entire cities. Religion can provide aid and community or it can lead to murder and destruction. We continue to do science, why can't we continue to do religion too? Perhaps to YOU the benefits of religion doesn't out way the costs, but for many people the rich emotional experience that religion provides out ways the cost.

[chtulu]

What does religion give emotionally that a spouse can't, or a hobby or personal achievement?

Or do you mean it emotionally soothes people who are afraid of the unknown and/or death? Because I feel emotionally satisfied without believing there is a bearded man in space.

What does belief in an intangible super being give you that things in the real world can't other than a false sense of security when you're on your death bed?

[Daldolma]

Originally Posted by chtulu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We have had issues with abortion and pro choice for years. We still aren't funding stem cell research with government money because of the religious aspect of life at conception, yadda yadda yadda.

Also, if you don't think the government on a state level is being influenced by the church then maybe you should look at this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezwIZo-hKiI

It's about how much the mormon church influenced and spent on proposition 8. They directly impacted the votes. In this case, religion impacted government; specifically civil right laws. Don't try to tell me that religion and God is only for personal well being, it encroaches on other lives and their personal beliefs.

No, you're missing the point. Religion didn't raise money and votes for Proposition 8. People did. They did it through the Mormon church. If the Mormon church didn't exist, they'd have done it through some anti-gay marriage PAC. In fact, that very trailer quotes a person saying that the Church was operating as a PAC. You're talking about "religion" as if it's forming people's opinions on the matter, when that is clearly not the case. As stated above, persecution against homosexuals pre-dates Jesus by thousands of years. In the case of its work on Proposition 8, the Mormon Church might as well have been the NRA. You're acting as if these viewpoints are being created by religion, when in reality, the religious entities you're pointing at are only being used as tools to legitimize and organize previously-held prejudices and beliefs.