Best Server Community Sin--Wait, Nevermind

[Phragmar]

Originally Posted by Pico [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Phragmar, with each post it seems you care more about lording your supposed moral and philosophical superiority over us than you do the community's health.

Your earlier post suggested that I had or would develop mental issues because of my position, so I'm sure it seems a lot of things. Let me spell it out though. With each subsequent post, I don't care about lording anything--what exactly do I have to lord? What is moral superiority? What is happening, however, is that I'm losing my patience, and as much as I believe in treating people with dignity, I do not believe in being a doormat.

That said, it looks like aside from a handful, the only people left in this thread are people who want to make personal attacks, flame, or call names because they feel like their guild membership obliges them, if for any reason at all.

Bubbles, I've articulated my position, several times and in several different ways. People who genuinely disagree and have a basis for it have articulated theirs; just because none of us immediately change our minds doesn't mean we don't appreciate constructive contributions to the discourse, and just because I don't respond to every criticism doesn't mean I didn't read it. I'm not defending my dissertation here; I'm having a conversation with strangers on the internet. Your previous posts have been hyperbole, mis-attribution, and editorializing meta-discussion; I'm sure you understand why I'm not taking your criticism seriously.

[Rhodes]

Originally Posted by Pico [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's some pretty smug shit right there.

That's pretty much all I see when I read certain posts in this thread.

"Look at me guys, I use semicolons and uncommon words for effect!"

I can't wait for the next time someone steals an orc pawn kill and ninjas a rusty battle axe so we can have round two of this thread.

[Kassel]

Phrag, on your ride to 50 take it slow and enjoy the game. Based on what you have stated in this thread you would hate this server as a raider. Take it slow and enjoy the fantastic gift the devs have given us.

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by Phragmar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Bubbles, I've articulated my position, several times and in several different ways. People who genuinely disagree and have a basis for it have articulated theirs; just because none of us immediately change our minds doesn't mean we don't appreciate constructive contributions to the discourse, and just because I don't respond to every criticism doesn't mean I didn't read it. I'm not defending my dissertation here; I'm having a conversation with strangers on the internet. Your previous posts have been hyperbole, mis-attribution, and editorializing meta-discussion; I'm sure you understand why I'm not taking your criticism seriously.

You've backtracked and jumped ahead rather eloquently.

Bottom line is this:

If you wanted a legit discussion on the matter, you would have presented the situation as a hypothetical.. Gotten a couple links to server camp rules... Gotten a couple cute ancedotes about personal experiences. And the thread would have died quickly and you would have been quickly forgotten.

Instead, you plasted a guild name to it, put the blood into the water, and lit off an inevitable shitstorm that got a zillion times bigger than whatever (lost) point you were trying to make, or answer you were searching for. Your method of bringing the topic to light damned the conversation before it even began.

Solid troll, though, i do give you props.

[Heebee]

Originally Posted by Pico [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

*drags an entire guild's name through the mud over an incident that i wasn't involved in*

This is standard practice here on the P99 forums!

[Klyre]

Originally Posted by Phragmar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

(Edited to bypass flames, personal attacks, insults, etc., and to condense)

I mentioned the guild by name and the members by name. If I understand it correctly, many of the arguments being raised by you and others are that the people who took the camp were within their rights and did nothing wrong. If this is so, they shouldn't be in jeopardy of suffering any community opprobrium from anyone. I told the story as best I recalled it. If you feel like I misstated something, the other people who were there can certainly feel free to clarify. But if the VD members were in the right, what consequence is it to them or the guild to be mentioned by name? I don't think anyone has a basis to accuse me of slander--I haven't said anything that was untrue (and if someone can point out to me that I have, let me know so I can correct it), so what exactly am I calling people out for?

I accept,

From the very beginning in you OP, from the very title in fact you question the nicety of the P99 Community.

Best Server Community Sin--Wait, Nevermind

So I see that you have tossed aspersions on the entire community and the Devs in particular.

To support this you then say

When I got there, Rilen was surrounded by members (Jomama, Freckie, Snump) of Vesica Dei--which I understand is a pretty reputable guild. I gave Rilen a hail and he told me that he had died, and they had jacked his camp and were sitting there trying to take the AC (which still hadn't spawned).

or....

... Really? I just can't help but be really disheartened to see this behavior, especially from high-level members of a well-respected (or so I thought) guild.

Here you clearly Name people and attach "Jacked" to their names (words have meaning and this says these people are thieves) and put into question the validity of the "reputable" nature of Vesica Dei. When all you really were asking was this....

Don't get me wrong--I'm not so naive as to think people are naturally good and will innately cooperate and get along, but I have to say I'm disappointed. The whole thing has made me reevaluate the server, honestly, and it wasn't even my camp. Classic is a difficult enough experience on its own, but if you add to that a strong likelihood of having to deal with. well, this--or worse, having to be friendly with people who would do this in order to participate in end-game content--in that case, I'm having a hard time justifying to myself that it's worth it.

So I guess that's my question, abstract though it may be. Is it really all the same? All the same camp-stealing, kill-stealing, loot-ninjaing, hate-filled animosity from live? Am I going to make it to level 40 just to have someone single-handedly turn 24-hours of hard work into a waste? It's a different perspective for me, I'll confess, since I think it accounts for a lot of why games like Everquest can't be made anymore, but maybe I was more optimistic over a few good experiences than I should have been.

To answer this question, if this really was your intent, did not require you to Name Names.

Furthermore you decide after agreement and both sides of the argument that it was not an offense against the rules of the game that you get up on your pulpit and preach to us all about what is righteous in a religious context.

What happened between the members of VD and Rilen was wrong. That's the long and short of it. It was legal (legal, at least if the camp meets the definition of a camp under the server rules, and since I haven't seen any staff interpretation on the definition or application to this particular area of the game world, I'm not prepared to take a position on that), but what happened was fundamentally unjust. That means something to me.

Once again you cast aspersions on VD as if we are something evil.

And again.....

EDIT 2-24-11: It looks to me like this thread has outlived its ability to generate meaningful conversation or rational debate, and instead descended perhaps irretrievably to the point at which the bulk of the responses are flames or insults--yes, by Vesica Dei members, among others. As much as I think the discussion itself is meaningful and timely, I fear moderating this thread in the future would demand more work than someone is willing to dedicate, so I have to recommend at this point that it be closed or moved, possibly both

Again you cast blame directly at Vesica Dei and only as an afterthought do you say "and others".

It was you who brought morality and self righteous vitriol to this conversation

But there's a difference between right--I mean right, as in righteous, not correct--and wrong, and it's not the same difference as between legal and illegal. The whole crux of my argument is that where those distinctions overlap, as here, right must be preferred to wrong, and good preferred to evil, before any consideration of legal or illegal.

You speak of Right versus Wrong only as it pertains to others.

To speak more broadly, however, especially if you're someone who has some reason for disliking Jesus Christ, what ever happened to virtue?

Very well, I ask you have you ever heard about the story of "Let he who has never done wrong cast the first stone"

I have from the very beginning been neutral about your concerns, but every time your arguments seem to shift so that you don’t have to consider that you may not be entirely correct.

As a very concerned person about your soul and if cannot come clean here on this thread because I think you owe an apology for trying to ruin peoples reputation, I implore you to do some soul searching, and ask for forgiveness.

'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

Are you still willing to say that you are so moral, that the people you name are so wrong. I don’t know where you hale from, but where I come from we call that person a Hypocrite.

[Methesa]

Originally Posted by Klyre [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Are you still willing to say that you are so moral, that the people you name are so wrong. I don’t know where you hale from, but where I come from we call that person a Hypocrite.

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[Teensy Weensy]

lol why do you keep trying to talk sense into the guy? A very wise man once said "You can't fix stupid". He was right you know

[YendorLootmonkey]

Eh... he's not stupid. He just has somewhat unrealistic expectations for the community of a MMORPG that is based on risk/reward and progress being proportional to time invested. There's nothing really more to say because no one is going to change their minds here. Just wish our guild hadn't been drug through the mud for playing by the rules.

[Messianic]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Eh... he's not stupid. He just has somewhat unrealistic expectations for the community of a MMORPG that is based on risk/reward and progress being proportional to time invested. There's nothing really more to say because no one is going to change their minds here. Just wish our guild hadn't been drug through the mud for playing by the rules.

I'm gonna go play WoW, where the community is mature!

Wait...