We need a clarification of "bug abusing" ruling... desperately

[Tecmos Deception]

I PMed Sirken recently when they were trying to scare people straight with exploiting and punishment announcements and stuff.

I specifically asked about bugging through locked doors sans rogue/key, the lev trick, and a handful of other "tricks" that almost certainly weren't intended/expected by the EQ or p99 devs... but still exist, go unchanged, and are used frequently.

Originally Posted by Sirken

rule of thumb, if theres 0 risk to you, its probably not legit.

That doesn't shed any light on a situation like the lockets, of course, because even if someone reports the bugged drop... what are they supposed to do? Stop trying to get items that ARE supposed to still be dropping and then someone else just comes in and gets a bunch of lockets and then maybe it gets decided that it was ok that some more lockets dropped? So you're SOL for trying to follow some perceived but never specifically enumerated spirit of the rules while some douche is 200k richer because he did something questionable and no one ended up giving a shit? Yeah, right.

[Swish]

People still lev'ing up that tree to get to Dhamp?

[Nocte]

Originally Posted by Swish [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People still lev'ing up that tree to get to Dhamp?

That's a bug? I thought it was just a good use of terrain objects.

[Tecmos Deception]

Yeah. And this is what Norden is asking about.

When does doing something clever (or just doing what you normally do but there is something different in the game even though you yourself aren't doing anything differently, whatever) go from "being innovative and good at the game" to "exploiting unintended design/implementation of the game"? Nobody knows.

[Itap]

The necro heal/cancel magic has been discussed thoroughly in another thread. Since it's been addressed and brought to devs attention, I feel it's legit to use. It's like item recharging, it trivializes certain things, but the devs choose not fix the code to change it.

[Lazortag]

If the bug existed in classic, I could understand it not being considered an exploit (unless it's really egregious like a dupe bug). You can get an eye of zomm through certain locked doors on here, but that was possible in classic, so I don't think that should be considered an exploit. I agree there really needs to be some clarification as to what's against the rules and what isn't.
I think what's important is that people report exploits and benefit in no way from them, unless the staff says it's okay. If an item is dropping that shouldn't be, the staff should remove those items afterwards - no one should be punished unless they benefited from those items dropping (either by selling them, using them, recharging with them, etc.). Just my thoughts.

[Lorraine]

Most of the times, this is a grey area - one could say it falls into the 'moral code' of individuals. You're asking people on the internet to adhere and abide to a certain number of 'unwritten rules'. The first guy plays along. The second guy plays along. But there will always be someone down this chain, sooner or later, who simply says 'screw it' and goes on doing what he wants to do it. And suddenly you have pretty much everyone doing it, simply because they 'don't want to miss out'.

Were small races meant to have Wallhack? Being able to actually SEE what is going in in certain parts of a dungeon you don't have 'visuals' on - also imagine what kind of advantage this is in red, while planning a group vs group pvp ambush/guerilla tactic.
Were small races/illusions meant to actually be able to sneak past The Hole locked rock? (iirc people used a similar tactic to 'bypass' a big part of Siren's Grotto via duck/crouch and camp).
How about intentionally summoning an Eye of Zomm inside a wall, so as to make it appear next to the zone line, and being able to invite+summon people straight to the point you currently are?

What classifices as "clever use of ingame mechanics" and what as "plain exploiting" - will almost always be grounds for debate (even in the eyes of the Guide/GM moderation here, you will have/find people who disagree with different things).

Remember this?
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[Byrjun]

Originally Posted by Lazortag [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think what's important is that people report exploits and benefit in no way from them, unless the staff says it's okay. If an item is dropping that shouldn't be, the staff should remove those items afterwards - no one should be punished unless they benefited from those items dropping (either by selling them, using them, recharging with them, etc.). Just my thoughts.

Well, I agree and this is also "classic." This kind of stuff happened on live. A good example is when uber items were accidentally dropping off trash in Skyshrine for the first week or so of Velious. The items were quickly removed - completely. I remember there was at least a sword that was never discovered to drop from anything else after that.

[Silo69]

Originally Posted by Nordenwatch [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In the "Server Rules" thread posted, this is included:



The problem I find is that there is no definitive way to prove that something is an exploit or an intended part of the server.

My favourite example and the one I "abuse" the most personally is the Necromancer heal ability. I have read the bug thread forums and this has been revealed to be an exploit of sorts. Are we not allowed to use this because it is an "exploit"? Should we be reporting people who do?

What about the recent drama around the dropping of the Lockets of Escape? They were not supposed to be dropping and was obviously a bug that was exploited. Should people be punished for this?

Where do we draw the line? I don't want to be banned for using the necro heal that 90% of necros use on this server, but I think that the monopolization of the Locket of Escape drop is a clear example of exploiting a bug.

necro heal gets nerfed late SoV

we already went over this on the bug forum, its not an exploit it gets fixed later just like fd just recently got fixed


get over yourself because you don't play your necro as your main anymore...

[Nordenwatch]

Originally Posted by Silo69 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

necro heal gets nerfed late SoV

we already went over this on the bug forum, its not an exploit it gets fixed later just like fd just recently got fixed


get over yourself because you don't play your necro as your main anymore...

Whether I play my necro as my main anymore has nothing to do with the discussion. I'm simply using examples of bugs that have been considered "exploits" in the past to make a point that there is NO clear line and the ruling in this area is extremely vague.