Game Mechanics: Rogue hide and sneak being invis to mobs should be skill dependant

[Dullah]

Is sneak hide ever going to be fixed? Rogue sneak/hide was never just ivu+invis prior to AAs. I've seen evidence posted here in dozens of threads including lists from classic era that list every mob that could actually see lvl 60 rogue sneak/hide (it was like 6 other than a few dragons/gods). As someone posted here, the rog sos AAs were silly because thats when you had to earn back the abilities rogues naturally had during classic era.

Lets fix this, taking rogue ability to drag corpses and so forth is a huge bug.

[Dullah]

http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/s...ead.php?t=2855

[Baxter]

I never played a rogue in classic, but right now sneak/hide just doesn't feel right. How can a class defining skill be equivalent to a 10p invis pot? I don't even use the skill at all anymore and just use crystal mask for gather shadows. It couldn't possibly have been working like this on live, just imo.

edit: its WORSE than a 10p invis pot because sneak/hide also slows you. No thx, id rather use other alternatives to it.

[Dullah]

Originally Posted by Zam

Rogues do use sneak and hide together to move 'invisibly'... in fact better than invisibly in many cases. If you 'hide' without sneaking also, once you move you are unhidden. The order in which you hit sneak and hide are unimportant, except for when you are levitating in some manner. In that case you have to 'sneak' before 'hide' in order for hide to work. You can 'sneak' on the move, but must be still to start to 'hide'.

Many mobs will never see thru hide. Very very few mobs will notice you sneaking when you are behind them. Mobs that see invisible will usually have a 'chance' to see through sneak/hide. This chance is affected by difference in level between you and the mob, and also your skill rating, if not maxed once you get over level 39 or so (as a rogue).

This becomes more and more of a factor in higher levels. For the most part at lower levels something will either see you or not, and it will be consistent. Still, /con mobs to be safe. I know that some mobs that saw through my rogue's sneak/hide at level 50, don't now see through it when he's level 59. Also, some types of mobs can spawn able to see through sneak/hide, but do not always do so. Goos in City of Mist are one example.

Sneak/hide also renders you invisible to undead in most cases. /Con is your friend to find out when it doesnt.

You cannot start to sneak and hide underwater, but you can continue to sneak/hide from dry land into the water. Hurts in places like Kedge Keep.

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/skills.html?skill=43

[Dullah]

After reviewing both p99 forums and the history of EQ on the internets I've found the vast majority of the misconceptions about how sneak/hide worked during classic era (launch-velious) seem to always be derived from the same false assumptions.

Assumption 1) a mob that sees thru low level racial hide must see thru rogue sneak/hide.
- they worked differently and sneak/hide effectiveness was also based on skill levels

Assumption 2) a mob that sees thru the sneak/hide of my level 30/40/50 rogue must see thru the sneak/hide of a level 60 rogue.
- again, sneak/hide power proven to have increased with level

Assumption 3) after Luclin, a mob that sees thru sneak/hide without SoS AA must have seen thru sneak/hide the way it worked prior to Luclin.
- though shroud of stealth may have provided better stealth than previous sneak/hide, normal rogue sneak/hide seems to have been nerfed at this point allowing mobs that did not previous see rogue sneak/hide to see in order to further increase the value of the SoS AA.

Assumption 4) because players see rogues using sneak/hide via see invis spell, mobs that see invis ability (not spell) must see thru sneak hide.
- Mob see invis ability did not work the same as the see invis spell.

These assumptions account for almost every disagreement I've seen both here and across the internet concerning EQ rogue sneak/hide ability over the last 14 years.

[Treats]

Assumption 5) Rogue believes mob does not see through Sneak and HIDE just because he is behind it, then wonders why his Sneak/Hide is broken when he moves into the frontal arc of the NPC.

[Dangermouse]

Originally Posted by SamwiseRed [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

what i DO remember is people making lvl 1 rogue alts to drag corpses out of the hole. so im thinking this may not be correct.

This was a faction thing ... Brell worshiping halflings were not KOS to the elementals in the hole. There were places such a rogue couldn't go, even with sneak/hide - for example all (some of?) the undead would see right through it.

This is just my memory though, I'm prepared to be corrected.

[Ele]

Pre-Luclin Comments:

2000 Comment
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt....U/ooFc7W1oYvwJ

A successful hide will make you invisible from nearly all living and
undead monsters. There are some mobs who can see through Hide itself,
but they are few and far between. Other than that, a plain 'see
invisible' spell will show up Rogues to other players.

2000:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt....Q/DUd3h4Yu_qsJ

> My level 8 rogue, when coupling hide+sneek, was able to walk right past
>anything in my way. All of which con'ed red to me. It is my understanding
>that this is = to invisibility with the exeption you can actually loot
>without breaking it.

It is equal to Invisibility in that See Invisible will allow creatures / PCs
to see you.

Looting breaks Hide instantly, but it *doesn't* pop the button. You are no
longer hidden. Same thing applies for stripping your corpse. You can drag
your corpse without breaking Hide, but you cannot strip it.

Hide / Sneak combo works for anyone who has both skills. However, Rogues
get the bonus of a message saying when the skills work.

>>Note he is incorrect about non-rogue Halflings being able to move while sneaking AND hiding to the same effect as rogues
Halflings have both skills, but don't get the messages and can never
increase the skills. Thus, it's harder for a non-Rogue Halfling to invoke
the combo. It can be done, however. My L5 Druid went to HH. I did Sneak
until I was moving slowly (the proof that it was working), then I did Hide
until an Orc in view was Indifferent (the proof that Hide was working).
After that, I was able to slowly creep through HH to the Keep.

Hide / Sneak will make many creatures ignore you. However, it won't work
against higher-level Undead, some lower-level Undead, and many non-animal
monsters. My L18 Rogue has used Hide to look directly up at a Griffin,
because it will ignore me. However, Hill Giants have always (so far) seen
through it, so I stay well away from them. I also run from Deadly Black
Widows and Vampire Bats, because both will attack me on sight, whether or
not I'm using H/S.

2001
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt....Y/5NyioQZCS0MJ

Hide and sneak is vastly superior to any form of invisibility, with very
rare exceptions.

Hide and sneak is invis to living AND dead, nobody else can do that.

Hide and sneak never wears off (except zoning), all other invises (even
bards) do.

Hide and sneak will make you invis to things that will see through regular
invis or IVU. Nobody puts on invis spells to pull corpses in Hate.

Some other comments from same thread:

> >
> > Hide and sneak will make you invis to things that will see through
regular
> > invis or IVU.
>
> uuh, you should say "sometimes" or "rarely". If you just cast see invis,
> you will see a hidden rogue just fine.
Any creature of 'appropriate' level (whatever that may mean) has a tiny
chance of seeing through the S&H. In some areas caster mobs may buff
themselves or any other nearby mob with See Invis. Beware.


>uuh, you should say "sometimes" or "rarely". If you just cast see invis,
>you will see a hidden rogue just fine.

See invis works, and some creatures just innately see through it. Level and
skill have a lot to do with this. And there are exceptions. Ghoul Assassin
in Lguk will see a hiding rogue, but not one with IVU on.

But the fact remains, there are many, MANY creatures that cannot see a
rogue that will see everyone else.

2001
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt....o/4hJ1jXYBXIoJ

One off the top of my head is Drolvargs. Drolvargs will aggro an Invis-by-
spell character if they're close enough and dawdle. A rogue can sneak
and hide (in front of) a Drolvarg all day and they won't notice.

Some critters that are "born" seeing Invis might not see a rogue
hiding. Any critter which CASTS See Invisible on itself and its
friends WILL see that rogue hiding, although you can still sneak
behind 'em.

Some other responses in that thread

Kobolds in Sol B apparently see through Invis. My rogue can go anywhere
in the kobold areas of Sol B without detection, including the front arcs. I
can't verify that kobolds see through invis, but when I claimed they didn't
(based on my rogue's experiences) I was plastered here so I assume they do.
8)

****
That's the rub. Some stuff is "born" seeing invisible. Hide may or may
not work on them. Kobolds in Sol B do NOT see through invis by
default, but many of 'em have a friendly neighborhood shaman come
by and cast See Invisible on them. That spell sees through everything.

If you're lucky and can stay out of the front arc you can still sneak,
however, but even monks can do that.

It's just like the frogs in Guk. None of 'em are spawned seeing
invisible except some of the named (frenzied, assassin, etc), but many
times if you happen to be near, for instance, an Urd Ghoul Wizard
you'll see one of his buffs being See Invisible. And he'll cast it
on all his friends nearby, too.

Post-Luclin and PoP comments:

2002 on Hide/Sneak system:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt....Q/RJhtDjTf7eUJ

Some other S/H info.

It used to be that when someone cast a spell on you, you would be visible.
They have fixed that now so that buffage/healing doesn't affect your
visibility.

Some mobs see through S/H. Bats in Sol B, Assassin in LGUK, Dragons can
all see through S/H... HOWEVER, if you remain BEHIND the line of sight of
these mobs, you can stay alive. I love to see screenshots of brave rogues
standing behind dragons and other Boss mobs with only sneak on.

Sneak / Hide isn't as reliable against mobs many levels higher than you. If
your level 20 and the mob is level 40, there is a greater chance of you
becoming lunch.

Learn to con mobs with the "c" key rather than "right-click", if you
accidentally loot something, you will unhide and you will get creamed.

>>Would imagine this post meant "cannot start...while swimming"<<
You can start sneak/hide while swimming... but!... you can start on land and
then go into the water S/H, you WILL swim SAH (Slow as Hell) though.

Another 2002 comment:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt....I/HDFONRmrF7gJ

Spell invis and just plain Hide isn't "real" invis, only, ONLY rogue
hide and sneak works on all non-see invis mobs. Thats
real invis, all other forms are a pale substitute.

2002:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt....w/i77ZFWehOwcJ

Hide/sneak works against undead, and also against most things that see
invis. E.g., the goblin Wizards in Sol have no trouble seeing through my
50+ Wizard's invis, but my 7 Rogue hid/snuck among them with no problem at
all. When my Wizard had an accident in Lower Guk, my 7 Rogue had no trouble
walking past the undead to drag the corpse out. The bats in LGuk see
through it, though, so my Rogue got nailed when he went exploring after
dragging the corpse out.

2002
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt....w/VegSou2-acQJ

That's because some mobs are just immune. Emperor Crush,
Ambassador D'Vinn, A Royal Guard, and Lord Darish all STILL
see through level 60 rogues' sneak/hide...and Emperor Crush
still aggros (as do bixie drones...but at least they don't see through
sneak/hide).

You took one mob's peculiarities (and some are just like that)
and let it sour you on one of the best parts of being a rogue.
Not only that, but there are some (very few) mobs that see
through Invisibility spells but not sneak/hide (Drolvargs come
to mind). Also, some caster mobs will buff themselves and their
friends with a See Invisible spell. It's only fair, and no different
than PC's in EQ's PvP worlds (where see invis is more useful
than enduring breath).

2002:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt....w/zIAmR8cTMDgJ

>I kept reading how wonderful and necessary rogues were at corpse retrieval.

Well, in Kael, we suck. I HATE the see-invis only portions of Kael...even
places like Chardok where the dogs sometimes sniff you out, you can at least
work on pathing to sneak past. In Kael off the path, everything fucking
sees you and that's just anti-rogue coding as far as I see. But I am a bit
biased...

[Titanx]

Sneak/Hide was generally good against every mob in game except Bosses, and also any mobs who were able to see thru invis/ivu.

With the way it is now, there are too many creatures that now see hide/sneak that shouldn't.

[Dullah]

Some good stuff there Ele.

I've come across most if not all of those comments, and unfortunately I've come across a few comments that negate all of those quote (both in favor of better sneak/hide and against it), all from the classic (1999-2001) era.

This is why I've compiled the aforementioned list of misconceptions which I believe account for all of these conflicts and only serve to confirm the belief that rogue sneak/hide was much more powerful prior to Luclin than it currently is on p99. Almost all the exceptions that keep popping up are dated later than velious.

The evidence in favor of sneak/hide which does much more than just invis+ivu greatly outweighs that which is against it. Based on all the evidence, its apparent that rogue sneak/hide underwent serious changes with the introduction of AAs and luclin. Theres also some data to support the notion that certain mobs, perhaps from later expansions (ie kunark and velious), required a higher level of sneak/hide to move past undetected.